The Marketing Futurist Podcast

Mind-blowing inspiration to create and innovate

This is your futurist advantage!


With your hosts:

Mary Kathryn Johnson & Kelly Garrett

Ep010: Personalize Your Marketing Through Automation With Brennan Dunn Of

Show Transcript:

00:03 – Welcome back marketing futurists. I’m Kelly Garrett and I’ve got Mary Kathryn Johnson with me and our guest today is Brennan Dunn. I am so excited to have Brennan on. I’m from right message and I think I’ll just let Brennan’s started off and just tell us a little bit about yourself and what you’re doing.

00:21 – Sure. So excited to be here. So a quick backstory I guess. So my background is I started out my very first actual company, it was a company that generated leads for mortgage brokers and real estate agents and little did I know it, but I was dabbling into water program of personalization back then. What we were doing is we were taking a stock template, running ads to it and on the flight tailoring a template to have the branding and the photo and everything else for one of our mortgage customers and we generate leads. We delivered to them in real time and it worked really great and then the suffering more mortgage fall. It happened in the business of Africa overnight. That’s what got me into freelancing and consulting. I ended up working briefly at an agency and then moved up to Virginia from Florida where I start freelancing, decided to start an agency because I was getting a lot of referral work, but I could either turn away work or protein, so I decide to grow team.

01:28 – Got that to 11 employees and then decided to, I got bored of consulting and wanting to run software or run a software business again. So like the idea of having a lot of people paying me a little bit of money versus a few people paying me a lot. So I started a company called plan scope, which is a, or is I should say, not, was, is a project management app built for consultants and agencies. I ran that for a bit. And then the hardest thing about that, which is I’m terrible beginning of this, was getting customers, getting people to actually buy the thing. So that’s what led me into a, I guess content marketing and I read a lot of content, share anecdotes about my own experience running an agency. That worked a little too well. And then that turned into like reading a book and then creating courses and then before I knew it there was this little thing that was supposed to be for lead generation, for plants, scope that was doing about a million a year and planned scope was just suffering and not getting any attention.

02:24 – So I sold plan scope in the beginning of 2016 and I’ve been on double your freelancing since and one thing that led to double your freelancing doing so well was because we’re targeting freelancers and you could be either a designer or developer or marketer or a writer or any different types of freelancer. I started thinking, well what if we could make it so when people are viewing like a sales page or getting an email from us or just really looking at anything if I know that they are a designer and they’re an agency and that they’re looking for help with x, what if I could change parts of the website based on that? So that’s what led me into building kind of the tooling that has become my newest venture right message. Which is a way to make it really simple to personalize your website based on who somebody is. So that’s my, that’s the backstory.

03:10 – Yeah. That’s amazing. And that’s a wonderful, you know, path of things that led you to where you are. And I think it’s interesting. It’s just so fascinating to me to hear how different people get different places.

03:37 – So you’ve, I mean you’ve kind of done a little bit of everything and then I, you’ve, you’ve done a lot with drip to. We had Bob Jenkins on from drip as well. And you’re kind of an evangelist for drip I guess if you. I don’t know what.

03:59 – Oh, it was customer number two I think. And I remember back when it was a little side project and I knew I’ve known rob for awhile and he was trying to get me to switch off with infusion soft, so I decided to give it a shot. It wasn’t right. It wasn’t built out enough to make me switch, but I kept it for about a year and then it got to the point when they shipped workflows, visual workflows, then I decided to quit a infusion soft. And yeah. So I’ve been big fan of drip. I mean I’m, I’m good friends with the team and it’s been great seeing that product mature.

04:36 – Well, I can just say when your name came up in the conversation, it, it kind of spoke to the fact that we needed to speak to you.

04:44 – Yeah, Bob’s a great guy. I mean the whole, the whole team over there, the pages and dripper I was instead of their conference in Minneapolis a few weeks ago. And it’s always good getting to see them. They’re doing a lot of there. They’re really a good crew. I don’t know if you’ve met them in person, but they a lot of fun.

05:00 – Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I’m in Minneapolis, I live in Minneapolis, so I, I’ve been to both of their conferences and yeah, it’s, it’s an amazing, amazing company. So talk a little bit about how, you know, how do you go about doing something like personalizing a website for customer, for visitors, how, how does that work?

05:25 – But there are a few different things, but actually it’s good timing that we’re doing this. This is already a pretty big article right now, about 40,000 words currently. It’s all about how do you, given you’ve never done any personalization, you’ve never really done any segmentation. How do you start to personalize? Because at the root of personalization is segmentation. You can, if you want to speak differently to different people, you need to have a way of systematically saying, no, Mary is X. Kelly is why. And be able to know that and be able to react based off that. So you start with segmentation and I, I look at any marketing. Applique trip is the single source of truth for most companies about things like what somebody spot, demographic information that you might have about them, like you can if you keep it all on a tool like drip or really any email marketing app, you can then use that almost like a database for your website.

06:17 – So it’s a little easier when you’re sending emails because if you’re sending emails, others say drip drip can aster like, Hey, I have this tag or do they have this custom fields so to know, so send them this email or show them this paragraph of text or something like that. But it gets a little harder in one now they’re out of their inbox on your website. But most of us, especially for selling online were probably driving people from our, from an email we send them back to our website to buy or to read a sales page or something. So it’s, it’s, it makes sense to try to have continuity between the two. So the way to do that, the way I started doing that and was really simply just doing things like, so I was using infusionsoft at the time and I ended up reading, which is never the right answer, but I ended up reading a lot of custom code to make it.

07:03 – So infusionsoft, Passover, the contact id of the person. And then I would just hit their api and say, tell me everything we know about this person, what tags they have. And then I’d say things like if they’re a customer, show this, but if they’re not accustomed to that and if they’re anonymous to show this. So you can do things like say they’re reading a blog post of yours. And this is a pretty typical typical model is something like, you know, you have a blog, you create new content as you create new content. You emailed a content to your list so they come back to your blog. But also the idea is maybe they’ll share it with people or Google will send the traffic and then you’ll have anonymous people who are not on your list viewing that content. And the problem that most of us make is we have the same call to actions depending on if you’re on our list, not on our list, a customer, not a customer, you know, it’s all the same and it’s, I don’t know if you’ve ever been on a newsletter and you get an email for new article and you click on the link, you go to their site, you get hit with his welcome mat and then just pop up and then the site up and like all these different things.

08:03 – And it’s like, you just emailed me, why do you want my email address? Right. That’s kind of led me down this path was saying, well, what if we can make it. So if we can just include something that link that we send to our site, a little personal identifier and then if we can then in real time pull that information from say drip about that person and then just have stuff on our site and it will say like, you know, if they have this tag, show them this or don’t show the matter or something like that. So the unfortunate part is without either coding or buying software, you end up, it’s not easy to do this. One thing that you can do, which I’ve seen people do, and this is actually something that I usually encourage people to do who are just starting out would be, let’s say you’re doing a, let’s say you’re doing a big sale, right?

08:51 – So you’re emailing your whole list and promoting something like black Friday, right? So you’re going to big sale and then, let’s say that you have three different kind of core personas that we target. So maybe you’ve got, so I’m actually working with a friend who helps people learn how to invest, right? So he’s got people who are looking to invest because they want to make a lot of money that they spend to buy nice things. You know, people who want to invest for retirement. And then you have people who want to effectively day trade and make it a career. So you have three different segments and he’s selling a product that can help them all, but they each need to be spoken to you a bit differently. They have different needs that will make them want the product and so and so what, what he’s doing is instant.

09:35 – You just say like, if they’re a part of segment a or persona a, then drive them to a sales page. If there be good to be in and you just take, you literally just copy and paste sales page a few times and you’ve tweaked the testimonials and you tweak the headline and I kept and you tweak some of the language, you know, and so on and maybe the way that you described the product and it doesn’t need to be that complicated. It can just be a really simple thing where you’re saying if they, let’s say that you’re collecting data when they opt in. So let’s say you ask them like, when they join your list, are you, do you want to do this because you want to save for retirement? Do you want to make a lot of money so you can find nice things?

10:14 – Or do you want to become a day trader? Like the can choose when they opt in and then use that data down the line? That’s like a really basic like V, one elementary way of doing it, but it works. It works really, really well because the idea is if you were talking to somebody at a conference, let’s say, say you’re at like a converted lead pages conference and you’re reading something in the hallway and you sell this kind of thing that helps people learn how to invest. If I’m speaking with you, I’m going to probably, if I’m trying to explain to you what, what I, what I make, what I sell, I’m going to take into account what I know about you or maybe questions that I’m going to ask you and this is like how we do things offline. We listened and then we react.

10:55 – We look at behavior, we look at what’s the relationship we already have with this person, where they are referral. If so, what do I know about them and we all do this online or offline, but we don’t really do it online. Online were basically saying the same thing. Everyone at scale, which is okay, but it’s if you want like the tried and true principles of how have things been sold since the dawn of time. It’s been based off of, you know, who are you, what do you need and how can I take what I got and, and help your neat. So I’m on the one hand you could go and you could really super nation go like on a certain problem for a certain type of person and that works, but at the exclusion of everyone else. So the idea here is it’s a way to kind of niche at scale, if that makes sense.

11:39 – It’s really effective. I mean, I’ve had a working a lot of data now on just to kind of, I mean, companies like Amazon, they do this, I mean target target it, like there’s this whole controversy that they got into the, I mean, have heard target, I think it’s in Minneapolis. Have you, did you hear about the other thing from 2012 but issues that they have, how they were determining if people were pregnant based on what they were looking at online they will look at like, like do you find out in the store that you were pregnant before other people in your family even knew there was a story of some like teenage girl who was looking at the right things and then she started like in the mail, her family started getting stuff on like pregnancy, a outfits and stuff and the data I think call them really complaining about like why are you doing this? Like why are you sending this stuff? Like she’s 14 or something. And then she ended up being pregnant.

12:39 – So you know, it’s, it’s, it’s one of those things where I’m like, there’s a lot you can do that you can get really. Minority report is very quickly with a lot of this stuff. But the way I look at it is if I’m buying something, if I’m looking at, if I’m on your website and I’m engaging with you and somebody I want to put his little brain powers necessary and to thinking like, is this, this healthy? I want to be told, this is exactly how it can help you based on X. Right? So the more we can make it so the person on the receiving end doesn’t need to actively think about like, okay, so this is, this is this product I need to know, I need to think through how can this actually help me? And that’s why you end up with these really long sales pages.

13:20 – So these huge Faq and everything else because we need a kind of shock on our way into selling. And this really has rung true for me because again, with my freelancing, my business helps freelancers. I remember I got an email from a copywriter who was reading over my course on pricing and she was, somebody recommended it to her and she’s looking sales page and she sees testimonials from developers and web designers and so on. And the language, I’m a developer myself, so the language is very fresh I guess, and she sent me an email, she’s like, Hey, I’ve heard good things. It looks like it’s targeting developers and designers. I’m a copywriter. Can this help me? And I was able to salvage the sale because I was like, look, it’s a course on how to sell services to other businesses. It’s agnostic to what it is you do, but you know, I knew that everyone who had that question in wrote in, there’s probably like a thousand people who thought that and close the tab.

14:16 – Right. So. And that’s why I think a lot of people are turning to chatbox now because the whole idea of a chef like a little widget thing is the idea is, oh, I still have a question, I’m going to maybe type it into this thing, but then you’re entering a thing. Where will they get back to you in the time period that you like? Will they get back to you tomorrow? You know? Or like what? It’s not. It’s still, there’s a lot of cognitive overhead soul that goes into needing to type your question so I can just be told point blank automatically, here’s how this will help you based on the way I behaved or what I’ve consumed in the past, but I bought in the past if I bought product a and are looking at, I’m looking at product b, show me how this relates to what I’ve already done with you in the past.

14:56 – Right? So that kind of stuff is, is why I think it’s so important. It’s just, it’s, it hasn’t been easily accessible for people really until now. I mean, you can do what I said before, which is the third, if a blended group aid go to sales page, a groupie sells to retreat, but then what happens when you have multivariate stuff and you want to say if they are this, this, this, and this, then change this perspective than that. I mean now you’re looking at hundreds of variations to a single age and that gets very unwieldy very quickly. Yeah.

15:30 – Kelly and I know about that because we both create bots and when we are trying to segment people in a Bot, it can get huge very fast. Yes, exactly. And so in that sense, like what you were talking about, that’s, that’s brilliant. And I know that all of us are looking to go that direction because I know we’ve all been told niche down, niche down. That’s wonderful and we definitely want to serve specific people, but this will allow us, because no matter what, you can’t, you not everyone in the banking industry falls in the exact same category or not everyone in online courses is going to fall in the same category. So we still need to segment people and so to be able to take that information and okay, so make, I want to make sure I understand you. You can actually take and on a, on a page, take portions of that page and them based. That’s amazing.

16:27 – That’s what we’ve built and I built it mindblowing. Yeah. I mean it’s, it’s, I think it’s going to be, you know, I really, I hate saying the next big thing, but I, I really do think that it’s kind of, it’s kind of the middle ground between high touch sales and low type scales touches very, I need a, I’m reading a brochure, right, and I need to do you, you can’t, you can’t print out a unique brochure for every person. Right? Like it’s, it’s unfeasible. Right? But then on the, on the other side, if you’re talking to anyone who, any sales person who’s worth their salt is going to take an account who you are either going to tailor their pitch based off that. And that’s all we’re saying is like psychologically it’s works. It’s been working forever, but let’s make that happen in a way that scales and this more automated.

17:15 – We’re actually taking the person, the person out of the personalization is that in that sense, I don’t have to personally talk to each. Each of these prospects. You’ll figure it out. I can actually do this technologically.

17:29 – Yeah, and you can still. I mean, you can still, I mean, you’ll probably still have people who are writing in and so on, it just, it allows you to, it’s just a conversion optimizer. That’s really what this is, right? And I’ve seen firsthand, I mean I’ve been able to get a 70 percent increase of sales across the board just by doing this, which takes, I mean, it, it, it, the first time I did it was very basic and the thing I’m doing now, I mean I’m using my own tool, right message to us, but we have nine different data points that we’re collecting through an email horse. So you joined an email course and then there are worksheets attached to each lesson and when you complete the worksheet, we store data that you said that you chose on your profile. So by the time you get to the sales page, like a week or two later, we are using nine different data points to dynamically alter the headline, the taste case studies, the testimonials, the way we position the offer, the language.

18:22 – So if you’re a, if you’re, if you go in cognitive to the sales page, it’ll say freelancer all over, right? If you tell us you’re a design agency, then it’ll swap out every usage of the word freelancer design agency and it’s because people want the product built just for them and we don’t need to necessarily come up with a bunch of different variations of the product that we’re selling. Instead we’re relating, we’re, I mean if you think of like I’ve always looked at sales as being like an aligning thing, right? I have a need, I have a offer right in the alignment between the two and show him here’s how your knee can be. Hold on. I, for my offer, there’s a lot of products that are, you know, you can sell the product, but people have different reasons for buying that, that are different. And the more we can speak directly to those different needs, you know, at scale, the better it is for them and the better it is for us because we get more sales. But we get customers who conceptually understand why does this helps versus then needing to figure out how can we like, can this help? And anytime anyone’s asking themselves can, this actually helped me. You’re introducing risk to the equation, right? You’re adding a lot of risk there.

19:35 – Yeah. A win win for everybody because they’re happy with the experience. They’re happy with the information they’re getting because it’s so personalized and we’re getting easier. Conversions have less, less effort on our part. Exactly. I’ve got to ask you really quickly though, so you’re talking about this is just in the sense of the things that we do now. So this is like a Ryan laveck asked formula meets lead pages and that is the right message is what you’re saying. So what I need to do though is let’s say, so we’re segmenting. People were allowing them to come in and basically choose their own adventure and we, we are providing the exact adventure that they’re writing for themselves with our product. Sounds like. Yep. So flipping cool. Anyway. So, but then they’re happy they’re there. There’s gotta be a happy medium between the effort we have to put in to creating that for our customers and the seamlessness that it is, that it seems to them what pitfalls are there in this where I mean what? What are the difficulties that we’re going to have to as marketers, as business owners, that we’re going to have to tackle with this new thing.

20:49 – A lot of this is truly understanding your. I mean, so the old way was you come up with really good baseline copy that equally applies to everyone and hopefully is good enough that it. It can. It has broad appeal, right? The, the, the thing that needs to happen here, and this is the hardest, the hardest part for us in selling this as the education side, it’s not everyone conceptually gets it it, it’s about the overwhelming question of where do I start? So with what we’re encouraging people to do is to do a lot. Were you in, we’re, we’re, we’re helping facilitate this within the software itself, but there needs to be a lot of more qualitative discussions happening where let’s say you’re getting. Let’s say you’re getting a say you do something simple as somebody joins your list and you ask them point blank, hey, tell me a bit about who you are and why you joined and what you want from us.

21:39 – Right? So say it’s like a ps at the bottom of, of controlling them. Well, when you get these responses, they’re going to be probably plain text their replies to an email. The thing that needs to happen is this needs to be normalized over time into something where you can say, these are the discreet segments that are keep coming up. So with the right message, for instance, we realized we’re getting people who are either in software and information marketing consultants or um, ecommerce. Those are the four big groups that kept coming up. And then we were able to start to see over time, like what is the language that ecommerce people used that consultants odious, right? So consultants talk about for them it’s, they, they liked this for their clients, right? It’s more, it’s more so not for them, it’s for up selling it to their clients.

22:25 – So when, when, when we describe the product to a consultant, we’re talking about how it’s a competitive advantage for them versus he, everyone, you know, instead of just selling them a website, sell them a reactive website that will speak more directly to the people you know, like it’s, you know, it’s, it’s, we’re selling the same product but it’s positioned differently and we’re also able to look at like business intent. So say somebody, when they join our list, we asked them like, what is it you’re looking to do with personalization day one and we give them a list and when they choose one, we’re using that data to then make it. So all future communication is based on that. So if they’re saying that they’re looking for more top of funnel conversions, that’s their big bottleneck right now. How can you rate message, help them increase overall subscriber rates?

23:11 – Whereas if they’re looking to get more subscribers into customers, we then focus more on that. So, but a lot of that meant doing the due diligence of going and talking to a lot of customers and not only talking to them to get like generic, like overviews of the language and the pains and everything else they have, but to break these down into normalize them into discrete segment associations. Right. So like what are the things that certain people, types of people keep saying? Like in my world, freelancing, like designers often use the word project budget or to describe the price, right? I’m a copywriter might use the word fee and one developer might use the word a rate, right? So like it’s, it’s all the same thing. It’s all like the money getting paid, but it’s different, different language, different. There’s a different glossary being used in all these different kind of for all these different types of people.

24:08 – I’m just sitting here thinking, you know, our whole society is going toward making everyone the same. Right? I mean this is kind of the way it is. We’re trying to make everyone equal everyone the same. But really in our world, we are still segmenting ourselves because that’s how we are, that’s how we buy, that’s we, we look at the world differently based on who we are and what we do in life. So how are you handling or how do you think we can handle as business owners messy data. So there are going to be people who come in and say, well, I’m going to play around with this a little bit because this is really cool, or I’m in my mind thinking of my ecommerce client. So even though I’m a consultant and I’m answering your questions as if I’m that ecommerce clients, so now you think I’m ecommerce, so how, how are you handling that difficulty?

25:01 – So I’m not a big fan of theirs. There’s kind of the creepy personalization where you’re doing things like, you know, hey mary from wherever it is currently Tuesday, whatever. Today’s yeah. Like that. That’s kind of stuff that I, it’s more of a gimmick than anything else. Right? So a few things that we’re doing, because that’s a good question. My my issue with while I like Ryan’s method, while I like assessments and quizzes as a way of capturing data, I’m actually more interested in behavior. So it’s one thing for you to tell me this is what you want. It’s one thing for you to tell me this is who you are. I’m more interested in doing things like. So for instance, one thing that we’ve been doing is let’s say you’re running remarketing ads to your list, so you loved your list as a custom audience in facebook and you’re running ads targeting them.

25:50 – Well, facebook’s not going to, like you say, you’re given an email address. Tell me everything that you know about that. They don’t do that. However you can say I’m targeting this list, this custom audience, but I’m going to break it down into a few different campaigns. One of which is going to target people who are just women. One is going to target people who are women between 18 to 31 women 30 to 50, you know, and so on and like all these different things, right? Or by interest or whatever else. And then what you can do is you can make it so in the ad creative itself and the clickthrough through ink, you can annotate the outbound url with data about the segment that you’re targeting, demographic segment, and then what you can do is then you can make it so when they say you’re promoting a new article or sound like Webinar or something, you can kind of piecemeal, progressively profile them over time using data that they’ve already stored in facebook, which we assume is pretty usually.

26:43 – Right? That’s one thing. But then I also do things like, for instance, if they like in my case, right? So I, I look at two things before I know who they are. I look at two types of behavior, one of which is who sent them to me. And the other is what are they reading. So when I, when I, when they see my lead magnet, my call to action, if they originally were reading a article on a web designer blog and they’re reading an article and it talks about like links to maybe an article that I’ve read, right? So they’re reading an article on say getting clients or something, and then there’s a link saying, oh, and you should check out Brennan Dunn’s stuff on proposals or something and they click over what I’m doing behind the scenes as I’m saying that if somebody comes from a web design blog, I’m going to assume they’re probably a designer.

27:32 – It’s not a guarantee, it’s not scientific, but anyway, and I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna say like, hey designer or anything like that. Even though I kind of do for this and it’s worked because again, you, you, you’re going to, it’s one of those things like you need an, you don’t want to be two point blank, right? So you can do slight changes. So what I is, it’s not just this data and I’m taking this data, but you’re also waiting that data a little. That’s what we get. We have confidence scoring and right message where you can confidence score the likelihood that they’re in a segment and the more actions they do that are more likely of putting them in a certain site. So you can say things like if we’re 50 percent or more certain that their design or show this if we’re 80 percent or more, now show this like say scream site or something.

28:14 – Right? So you can do interesting things like that. So we’re doing a lot of behavioral things. That’s my big thing. I mean it’s one thing to get explicit. Survey them and everything else. That’s great. I think that that stuff works well, but I really like things like. So for instance, we’ve done things where we look at where they came from, so say a design blog, send them and then they start reading articles primarily about proposal writing. We’re going to make the assumption that they’re probably a designer who needs help with proposals. They’re not reading stuff on pricing, they’re not reading stuff on scaling an agency. They’re reading stuff on a proposal. So when they go to our homepage or they see the footer called actions across the site, it’ll literally say designers, colon, learn how to close more proposals and that’s the call to action.

28:58 – And then if they start doing other things like reading articles on pricing and eventually that wins out. Then the connections actions, language shifts based off that. So we’ve been able to see, I mean this is where, this is why I am really big into stuff because it’s a lot easier to optimize by us and it is to acquire more qualified people. So we’ve been able to get just from doing that where we’re saying guess what type of business they run based on where they came from or what landing page they landed on organically since we don’t get keyword data from Google, the next best thing is looking at what, where do they land on and what can we infer based on that. So we take that and we look at behavioral consumption. So what kind of category of content are they reading? And then we just relieve all the language on the call to action and that’s gotten us a 250 percent increase in conversions from visitor to a subscriber. Which I’m really happy about. I think be too.

29:56 – But I mean, that’s the kind of thing where I’m like, I mean, it makes sense why that works. I mean, why do content upgrades works so well because if you’re reading an article about starting a business and there’s the lead magnet that says, get the checklist about how to start a business, those things great, like oftentimes get 10, 20 percent opt in rates because they’re so super specific to what they’re reading. So it’s the same concept. It’s all about relevancy is making the thing that you’re asking them to do more relevant to them. And that’s, that’s all we’re doing and, and trying to make that. So whether we’re taking explicit data like we’re getting through a survey or we’re getting data past from say a remarketing campaign on facebook or we’re looking at onsite behavior, combining all that and being able to say, what can we tell about who somebody might be in an acting on that data and saying, we think if they’re a designer, if you want to change out testimonials and then a change, maybe this language over here or something like that. Right? The other designers. So that’s, that’s basically what it sounds straightforward and it is, it’s just, it’s, it’s one of these things that it makes total logical sense. Okay.

31:01 – Yeah. Almost so simple. Why have we not done this before? And it’s always simple. It’s just not easy. Yes. We’ve talked about this before several times. It’s simple, but it’s not easy and, and right, you’re sold, I’m sold, Duh. You don’t need to tell me anymore. Right. Message is what I need. I’m a messenger funnels because I know people are landing on my side who need, have to have a chat bot built for them and I know other people are landing on my site who want to learn how to build a chat Bot. So I know I need that done for you. Yeah, no, I need that. That is a perfect example of being able to do that because that’s the age old difficulty with a business like that where people land on it because they’re interested in the topic, but they could, they could eat, need both or they in some of people actually do need both.

31:48 – They need it done for them in the beginning and then they need their team trained on how to do it so that they can take it in house. So yeah, we need all that data, but. So we’re. So the future is here obviously, which is incredible. I keep saying that but I’m just, I just can’t even believe we can do this. But where are we going next then? So if this is something we could do now, what’s next? Where’s this leading us? That’s what I was going to ask. So even beyond websites, what, what’s next after websites?

32:16 – I think we still have a lot of way to go with us. So the issue with this is it still effectively a giant Madlib, right? Were saying like, you know, I mean it’s basically like fill in the blanks, right? I think what will be most interesting, this is actually our, our end goal with what we’re doing, is to be able to say what are the common, instead of being explicitly say that people who behave this way should get this and response, what can we do with, for instance, machine learning and that’s why we’re organizing pretty solid engineering team of actual data scientists type people. What can we do to make it so. I mean this is where like longterm what if, what if instead of needing to flop out sentences or words or examples, what if we could somehow feed in a default and then have something that is aware enough of grammatical stuff to modify it slightly based off of inputs.

33:22 – Right? So instead of meeting and say like, so for what I’m going to do now, like with the nine different data points sales page example I gave as it’s literally under find final replaces. So I’m saying, let’s say they are a designer, right? Or actually no, I should say I run the agency or freelancer for one first. So the default, the, the, the webpage by default with no rate message on it is talking to you as a freelancer. So then I look at the data field and their email marketing app, a record of what kind of sizes of their business or they’re a freelancer or an agency and I say they’re an agency. I went to replace the word freelancer with agency. So if I just have that now when they’re reading it, it’ll talk about, you know, you as an agency. But then the next past, the next layer is saying if they’re a designer, we want to swap out the word freelancer with freelance designer or agency with design agency, it’s not as much as just adding work because we flipped the word ordered, you know, it makes sense.

34:22 – It’s there to say design agency, not freelance agency designer, right? Does it make sense? So there’s that stacking effect where what ends up happening is you have all these different passes fee made, right? And then the final page is outfitted, which is what the viewer sees. So there’s a lot of these different things saying if this is true, change this, this, this and this, but that could stack on top of an existing change and what would be great would be something a little more, and again, this is way down the road, very premature, but to be, to have something that was less you needing to say chained, find this word and change to that word and be able to have it be a little more almost like generated copy that is seated by data. Right? And again, that’s a big, that’s a big challenge to fix that, or to make that happen.

35:15 – But that’s, that’s what we’re thinking is being able to do that across the board and email copy and what the. I mean it doesn’t, the, the medium doesn’t matter that much. But yeah, I mean across the board and I mean you kind of already see that. I mean there’s like, you know, look at the personalized postcards that get sent out by when, whenever there’s an election, right? Like there’s elements of this already happening. It just hasn’t been accessible really a to you can go to Amazon’s homepage, like the two of you have different home pages on Amazon. They’re not complaining that they are doing this. They know. I don’t know if it goes far as to changing product copy. They might, but they’re doing this and I mean that’s literally Netflix’s business model is saying don’t make people browse, show them here’s what we think you’re going to.

36:06 – So you’ve already seen this. It’s just, it hasn’t, it’s required other, an engineering team or you know, yeah, it’s an engineering team or you don’t do it or you just have a static. This is what everyone sees. And the thing for me as a developer by training is developer turned marketer is you go into facebook and it’s personalized to you, it’s all your friends, right? And then you go to some bakeries is probably crappy example, but you know, some staticky type site and that not personalized, but to the browser, it’s just a webpage, both or just web pages. It doesn’t care. Like it’s, they’re both just a webpage. Right? So what we’re trying to do is trying to say, you know, obviously facebook’s not trying to sell you anything in that one. I mean, they are, they’re sending you personalized ads based off of inputs you’ve given to them.

36:58 – I mean, that’s what they’re doing, but we’re trying to make it so the every man, every woman can say, I have a business, we sell stuff online, we generate leads online, I build my list online or whatever. I went to apply some of the things that worked so well that I know if I’m at a conference from speaking to somebody about my product or about the, you know, the business or whatever, I’m going to take into account who they are when I conveyed to them. I want to do that, but I want to automatically done online. And that’s, that’s the challenge that we’re, we’re attempting to solve for this.

37:32 – Wow. Amazing. So I want you to tell everybody how you kind of were right message messages out and how they could get going using it. But first, before we do that, do you have any tip or tool or piece of advice to give people that can help give them a futurist advantage?

37:52 – Yeah, I mean I think, I think one of the best things you can do is to make it. So the question keeps coming up. I think in coma questions. Basically. If you were to go get hit by a bus, which I hope doesn’t happen and you go into a coma for a year, is your business still going to run? And I think there’s a lot of us, even though we’re, we like to say that we have, you know, a business independence or building automated businesses and selling, if you’re still out there sending weekly newsletters and sending quarterly big pitches or something like that for your stuff you really don’t, like, it’s not, it’s not a complete system in the sense that it works independent of you. So I would say like whatever you can do to make it. So if you, you know, if you’re writing an email or something like that, that it’s going out to your entire list, ask yourself, is this something that is actually evergreen I guess is the right word?

38:50 – Is this something that is actually an asset or a one off? So I’m interested in building assets, like I like the fact that I have all these systems down in my business that are truly assets in the sense that they have inputs and outputs. Outputs are hopefully money and puts our leads right. That should be the goal. That should be the goal. I think for all of us figuring out what that takes for us to do for us individually to do or corporately I should say, to do, to make that possible. Because I worked a lot of businesses big and small and a lot of them are still pretty unsophisticated when it comes to how they do this stuff. I’m all, for a lot of them, it’s just like they got a newsletter and that’s it. And then they use that newsletter to not send out educational stuff, but instead to send out, send out my little winter light, but instead to send out, um, uh, you know, like a big pitch sequence or something that’s trying to get them to buy.

39:51 – It’s just, it’s the thing I like is that so based on the seller or the company’s timeline where it doesn’t matter if you joined the list yesterday or you joined a year ago, you’re still getting pitched the same thing. You’re getting the same content. The more we can put ourselves in the shoes of the new subscriber who just showed up and just met us, the more automated and more personalized I think our stuff will get naturally because otherwise the alternative is, you know, it is November seventh on deciding to do a big launch right now for the next week. And I’m just gonna broadcast it out to everyone and hope that enough people hope that it sticks enough, that it makes it worthwhile. But it’s a poor user experience. I think when somebody is not ready to be pitched or it’s not ready to buy or is not understanding why they should buy, considering anything that you might know about them. So I really do think that the more you invest yourself in this, and I know that’s, I’m not really recommending a tool or product or anything like that, but I think that it’s that mentality of thinking automation and personalization are side effect of wanting to be putting yourself in the shoes of your customers. And that’s it.

41:01 – I got to say something. Okay. So, yeah, this is just blowing me away in my brain. Can’t quite keep up and formulate the words that I need to say. So I’m gonna try. But so I know our audience. Okay. The people who are going to be watching this and what you’re saying, what you just said, that amazing tip.

41:24 And believe me, futurists in the audience, please hear what he just said and, and bring it down to where you are right now. So we have people who are freelancers or solo preneurs and they are in their business running it day in, day out, doing everything, and so what this will allow them to do is just to get the next rung up. Okay. A little higher out of those weeds and we have ceos and and investors and those kinds of people who will be able to use this and actually allow their business to run, like you said, the coma situation, the coma question and be able to run more automated without them so that they can actually be the futurist, the innovator, the one thinking of the next thing. Not actually having to run what’s existing. Right.

42:14 – It’s a hamster wheel. I mean, that’s kind of what it is we’ll have. I think a lot of people think that if you’re not doing that, then the, you’re just looking to have the nice thing on the beach with my tie and zone out. It doesn’t have to be that way. I mean, I’ve, I’ve gotten off the hamster wheel, one business, I could start this new business and I wouldn’t be able to do this, this, this, like a new way now how do I need to be on the hook of writing weekly emails just to nurture my audience. Then writing pitch email so I can bring in revenue to like it’s automating and personalizing has made it better for them. It’s it better for me so I can focus on what I think is the next, the next stage of I guess my, my, my career. Right, absolutely.

42:55 – Wow. So where can, if, if everybody is as sold with right message and how can, how can we get started or where are things at with that?

43:08 – We actually have about 50 something customers right now paying customers. So we’re live. We’ve got companies you’ve heard of using us and the stuff you’ve got to write and just enter in your email depending on when this is out. Our plan is we’re doing a big public launch with both partners and internally starting in January. So what we’re doing right now is the one of the product who was very more mental power users who get it and we’ve actually thrown on, we have a customer success person who works individually with all of our customers now to help them get all set up and basically do it all for them. It’s like free consulting that we’re offering, but it helps us better understand what people are doing with it and so on. So I come January, we’re shipping a completely new design product that’s more meant for self sign ups self-serve where people can go in, and this thing gets set up at all on their own.

44:00 – It’s more objective based instead of right now it’s saying here’s the tool, good luck knowing what to do with it come January. The product is going to be more focused on what is it you want to achieve and then under walk you through like basically how you used the product to help achieve the end goal. So we’ve been doing, we’ve been hitting a lot of thought and design and working with a 50 ish customers. We have now to really figure out what that needs to be. We’ve done that. Now we’re almost ready to the point of being able to open up the doors, but if we, if you really like, like this now and it’s life, but if you want for holiday sales or whatever you want to like capitalize on this kind of stuff. We actually are bringing on five new customers week just so we get fresh blood, the system. So if you were to enter in your email and opt in and then just email us and say, hey, I heard about you on the marketing future show. I’d love to get onboard his wife. We might be able to get you into the queue prior to our big launch.

44:57 – Great. That’s so exciting. Yeah, that’s craziness. I’m just, I just can’t even believe this. This is amazing and obviously I really would love to have offline or later in another conversation, a conversation with you specifically since you are doing this, about the social implications of this and how people are feeling about being followed around and understood it and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, I’d love to chat with you about that, but that we’ll save for another time.

45:27 – If you go to my site and it’s very specific to you. There’s always incognito mode.

45:34 – You can’t do anything about it. Unfortunately. I have a feeling I’m going to be basically, you’re surfing the net on, in incognito every single day.

45:43 – So argue that there’s a, there’s a like why? If you’re talking to a salesperson, I want them to know.

45:49 – I wanted to recommend. I don’t want, I don’t want to act. I don’t need.

45:53 – You can do this negative. There’s negative ways to join this, right? It can be used for good too.

46:02 – Yeah. And will ask with any marketing tactic or tool, there’s ways you can overdo it and completely blow it. But, and that’s what we’ve been talking about though, Brendan, I really had to tell you, because most of the, most of the people we’ve been talking to, we have come onto those kinds of issues and said, you know, this is really because everyone is really putting their input into the personalization and really that that’s the direction that’s going, which is wonderful for many, many people, all businesses, but it also, all of our guests, like you have understood that, that gives us a certain responsibility and we really are taking that responsibility seriously. We’re not, we’re not going to sell this for evil, then go to some country, right? We’re going to use it for good and we’re going to protect it and we’re going to protect this knowledge and make sure that we’re not damaging people or make people feel sleazy and all that kind of stuff. So we get it. And that is, we only are going to talk to those people obviously. Good.

46:58 – I mean there’s, there’s the black hat and white hat ways of doing anything, right? Yeah. And, I mean I look at this as being, again, a genuinely useful way of creating better customer experience, user experience improvement that happened and any good ux improvement is going to result more, more conversions, more sales. It’s another, it’s another way of doing that. So.

47:18 – Right. Great. Well thank you so much for joining us, Brandon. You have provided so much value and we’re very excited to watch, right message grow and change the Internet because I know it will. I hope so. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much.