The Marketing Futurist Podcast

Mind-blowing inspiration to create and innovate

This is your futurist advantage!


With your hosts:

Mary Kathryn Johnson & Kelly Garrett

Ep006: How Online Courses and Content Might Change for Marketing Futurists



Show Transcript:

00:00 – Welcome back everyone. I am here today with a good friend, Nathalie Lussier a of ambition ally and she is someone who I think definitely always has her thoughts, you know, light years ahead of us with marketing and she’s someone I definitely think as a marketing futurist and I’m just going to let her give us a little bit of background into where you’ve been, what you’ve been doing and where you are now, kind of what brought you to where you are now with things.

00:31 – Yeah. So I’ve always been a technology fan if you will. So I started making my first book sites when I was 12 years old and I built my school’s website, went on to study software engineering in school and um, I was really lucky because I got to be an intern and silicon valley and on Wall Street. So I definitely kind of saw things from that perspective and when I graduated I realized, you know, those places are great, but that’s not really where I see myself. So I started my first business right out of college and I turned down a Wall Street job offer to do it. And, I have to say that, you know, the business that we have today is a software company, but I never could have started my software company right out of college. I had to take other steps first to learn about business, learn about marketing, learn about sales and, you know, understanding what people want and need before I could build something for them.

01:23 – So I’m kind of lucky that I didn’t start this business first because they probably would not have happened. So I started my first business online and it was an online education company, so I was teaching people how to eat healthy and that was just a passion of mine. And I realized like, I think I could do this, you know, I had read about follow your passion and um, that’s really where I call it my training business. And I learned how to do marketing and digital strategy during that time. And then it kind of pivoted from there and people started asking me for advice and to build websites and kind of go back to that technology route of mine. And that kind of spiraled into what we see today, which is our ambition ally company, which I run with my husband and a small team virtual team. And yeah, so today we develop all kinds of tools for mainly wordpress and tag based crms like ontraport, active campaign, infusionsoft drip and convert kit. So for membership sites, for list building and really kind of taking together all the things that I learned running my education business and kind of putting that into software so people can kind of use the same strategies in their business.

02:33 – Nice. Yeah. And I think that’s so key that, you know, you say that you couldn’t have done this your first business right off the gate. I think so many people get caught up in feeling like whatever their first business is like, this is it, this is what has to work and what has to be at. And I think one of the analogies that you use most often that I repeat to people a lot is the spiral staircase. Maybe. Can you tell everybody a little bit about that and how that plays in?

02:57 – Yeah, absolutely. I, you know, I think that our businesses are a lot like a spiral staircase and when I found myself a couple of years into business and I was designing websites for clients and I kind of realized, wow, I feel like I’m back in square one because I was designing websites in high school and I told myself I didn’t want to do this as a career, you know, because I wasn’t very good back then. Managing clients or any of that stuff. And when I kind of circled back I realized wow, I had a lot more experience to bring to this. I had a much different perspective. I felt like I was kind of higher up on that spiral staircase and I was able to bring a lot more to my clients and I was also better at working with them, managing them, pricing and you know, all of that stuff.

03:40 – So at that point I had kind of got back to square one, but I was at a much higher level of doing a similar thing that I was before. And the same, the same spiral happens over and over in my business. You know, I find myself doing the thing that I’ve done before, but now it’s at a different level or I’m doing it in a different way or if there’s like a new nuance to it, but it feels like the same thing over and over, but I’m just kind of growing and I think that happens to all of us in business.

04:11 – I love that. Oh my gosh. I’m sorry. I have to say something. That analogy is so perfect because, and I love the fact that you talk about a spiral staircase because usually we can’t see around the next corner. That is just perfect. Yeah.

04:26 – Was one of my favorite favorite analogies. I refer back to that often. So. So yeah, I mean that kind of you, you did talk a little bit about some of the obstacles you’ve, you’ve encountered, but, but what else, you know, what types of things have you come up with? Especially with building a software business? I think that’s at the height of technology.

04:46 – Yeah. Interestingly enough, with software, things are constantly changing and people are looking for the next thing all the time, but at the same time you want to build something that’s going to be solid and stable and that’s not going to just chase the next cool thing. So that’s been an interesting balance because I definitely have like so many ideas for what we could be doing. So many ideas for what we can add, what we can make better, but we can change what we could do, all kinds of stuff. But um, my husband is actually a really good at keeping us on track and focused a little bit as opposed to just like bolting on a bunch of features. So that’s been really good. Working together with him then kind of finding our balance, both relationship and software and building a business and kind of working with a virtual team. It’s, it’s been interesting and definitely I would say hiring is one of those tricky things that I think all of us who ended up hiring, we’ll have to go through ups and downs with I would say.

05:44 – Yeah, absolutely. We’ve, if you haven’t been there yet, I think a lot of people drag their feet in, in doing it for the first time because of the fears and then if we have been there. Yeah, there is. There’s a lot of things to learn and, and uh, and it, it just, you’re forced into it whether you want to give up.

06:04 – Right. And I love that. Husbands, are those, those grounding people,

06:09 – Good jobs. And, and for those of you who aren’t familiar with Natalie and her husband, robin, I mean you guys are an amazing inspiring coupled to watch because you have the technical review. I mean, you know everything about the software. You have these amazing technical minds, but yet you’re so balanced and you bring that, you both bring such amazing contributions to your company and it’s very inspiring to watch. And I know I’m not alone in other people that know both of you and have, have seen that for sure. Thank you.

06:47 – So where do you see this going? I mean, I, I love the idea. You have such an amazing background. I mean Wall Street and Silicon Valley, I mean both sides of the country. So, you know, taking this and you talk about memberships in your specific site, in the software that you develop, how do you see that changing a with all of the new things? And I love what you said with when you said, you know, we don’t want to just chase the latest new thing, the latest trend, if you will. So how were you able to determine what’s the trend and what you actually want to develop as a feature that’s a benefit to your, your customers?

07:28 – Yeah, we like to definitely cocreate with our clients and so we will take a lot of their feedback and you know, we, we asked them a lot, we’re like, you know, what do you want? Like, what do you think about this? What if we did this? And and sometimes, you know, the feedback we get is like, yes, that would be amazing and that’s exactly what we want and, and sometimes we see like the deeper thing that they’re trying to accomplish is not necessarily that one little feature. So that’s been helpful to kind of understand the bigger picture of their business because I feel like we’ve, you know, we use our own software so that helps us to see like what’s really important and what’s not. So yeah, so there’s definitely times where people are like, oh, I wish we could do this, and then we’re like, okay, cool, but you know, is that really going to change your business?

08:12 – Probably got. But so we try to kind of filter a little bit and put ourselves in their shoes. I think that’s the biggest thing that the more we can be our clients and understand how things are in their businesses, the better we are able to build our software for them. So that’s definitely one thing that we do. And then in terms of kind of where I see things going, I think that I try to look at outside of our industry, so we’re definitely in a bit of a bubble if you will have like the online education or online courses kind of space. So I like to look at businesses that are completely different and I think some of the businesses I like to think about are the really big ones like facebook, like Amazon, like Google, like what are they up to and what are they.

08:55 – And Apple, you know, there’s so many different companies that are doing big things and like we don’t have to necessarily imitate what they’re doing but we can get inspired by kind of the concepts that they use. So for example, with Amazon, right, they have Amazon prime and so this is a recurring membership that you sign up for and it actually incentivizes you to buy more things because you get free shipping and you also get free downloads and other stuff that you can watch or streaming videos and stuff. So how can we do something similar in our businesses? So having sort of a low cost membership option, but giving them some free stuff as well to sample the either before or during their membership and then also kind of just incentivizing them to go for more paid products. I think that we can totally emulate that and we don’t have to be Amazon to do it. We have the software and the tools to do that. It’s just about applying a similar strategy for your business.

09:50 – Yeah, I will. That, I love that. That takes for me anyway, that takes an amazing direction. You mentioned two things, Amazon and facebook both and they have different strategies in that respect. So you know, one of the things I’d like to tie those two things together if I can you talked about asking your clients what they need and communicating with them, but yet at the same time, keeping your finger on the pulse of what’s happening outside of just the education sphere or the online course sphere. So how do you mold those two things because your clients probably won’t know everything that’s coming before you do you are in that space, are we are in that space and and especially looking at say Amazon and facebook. So how do you determine, again, I’m trying to wrap my brain around how people like you who are so incredible and create such an amazing things for us. How do you determine what to do and what not to do? And like facebook very different from Amazon. Facebook probably asks their, their customers some things, but then pushes where they want their customers to go. How, how do you balance that? How do you figure out which is better to do a great question?

11:13 – Well, I think definitely the facebook with all of these companies, they’re so data driven, right? So they know how much time people spend on their websites, which pages they go to, like what are they doing when they’re there? So I think, you know, the more data that we have to, as business owners, the better we can make those decisions. So, you know, in our software SSLI and progress ally, we try to track, you know, which pages do people go to, like what videos do they watch, what quizzes do they complete and kind of start gathering some of that data so that we can make similar decisions and realize like, okay, like this course is doing really well, how can we get more people into this because we can notice if people take this one, they’re more likely to take the second one or you know, you can kind of get similar data.

11:56 – And that’s kind of more from, you know, the, the implementer or like the site owner. But I think it’s the same when we’re designing our software to, you know, we try to see like, okay, people never ask questions about this feature. Maybe that’s not really important to. Maybe people aren’t really using that. And is it because we’re not educating them enough about it and telling them how cool it is or is it really just not that important for their business. So we do kind of try to gather as much data as possible. But yeah, going back to facebook and Amazon, I think a lot of that I’m like, a lot of their power is from the community aspect and even Amazon with the comments like that or the reviews, I feel like that is a huge reason why they have been so successful. And facebook to everyone goes to connect with other people there.

12:40 – Right? So I think that the more we can kind of build that into our, you know, community building into our software or depending on if you’re using the software into your membership I think is also extremely key. So that’s something that you can kind of use and yes, if we will probably be, you know, decisions that you make that are not popular with your, with your software or your members or whatnot. But you know, there’s also decisions that you have to make as a business where it just makes sense financially or it makes sense time wise where you can’t physically build all the things you want to build and that kind of thing. So yeah, we try to, you know, prioritize as much as we can with what’s possible.

13:18 – Right? So data, data, data, data.

13:22 – Yeah. Okay. I’ll say balancing out, you know, data, but also listening to what people say because yes, the numbers do tell a lot of the story. But you know, sometimes with, even with companies like facebook, you know, they want to optimize how much time you spend on their site, but if you talk to people who are addicted to facebook, like I think all of us are, you know, they might say I wish I didn’t spend so much time on facebook so they need to probably listen to that part of it too. And not just, you know, their, their numbers. But I think there’s, yeah, there’s definitely like both sides of that.

13:57 – Right. So you know, you being in the online marketing industry, I think there’s a lot of, there can be a lot of like love hate going on. What are some things that just drive you nuts about this industry?

14:12 – Oh boy. I would say some of the big ones are definitely. Well I’ll talk about the software side of things first. So I feel like there’s a lot of hype around different software tools and like things that kind of promise massive results for, you know, use this tool and you can experience, you know, like a atm machine that’s spitting out cash for you kinda thing. Right. And, and I think that it’s, it’s just a huge disservice to everyone because then people get kind of like Bert or like, you know, they, they’re like really shy to invest in software and also the thing goes with customer support, you know, if they have a bad customer support experience with the software vendor, then there are a lot less likely to be nice than the email, the next one. So I think that can be another thing that can cause some trouble.

15:04 – I think just being honest with what your software actually does I think is really important. And and that’s what we try to do and we do. It’s, it’s a tricky balance because you want to paint a picture of what’s possible when you use it. But at the same time, you don’t want to promise the moon and say, you know, hey, it’ll just click one button and then you’re done. Right? Like there are, you know, there’s always some work involved in any new tool setups. I think that’s something that for me is kind of a tricky balance and I see that other people may not go on the right end of as well. So there’s definitely that. And then in the space too, I would say more kind of in the coaching space, but kind of related is this whole concept of like income claim marketing.

15:45 – So I think that a lot of times people use their revenue or their income and their business to market themselves as being super successful and able to pass on similar results to their students or clients. And that’s not always the case. And also it creates just a really like weird kind of false thing that people are chasing these gurus when that’s not really the, you know, the mark of what you should be looking for. Like you should look, be looking for the results that you’re going to get. And um, I think this is the case for courses and coaches and all kinds of things. So that’s another big pet peeve of mine for sure too.

16:20 – Well, and that’s only 50 percent of them, sometimes not even 50 percent of the equation, you know, with a tool, it’s just a tool, you have to use it correctly and you have to put your own sweat into it. And I think there’s a lot of people that don’t want to do that for whatever reason and just expect the tool to do all the work or the program or the membership to do all the work for them.

16:44 – Yeah. Or they just need to hire someone to implement that tool. But then that person that they hire also won’t know everything they know about their business. So it’s, it’s a, it’s always a catch 22. It’s always taking what’s in my head and plugging it into someone else so that they. And that comes back to the whole hiring issue. How do I take what’s in my head? I started this business because I have this knowledge and this experience and I’ve gone through my own spiral staircase, but that person that I’m hiring hasn’t. So how do I plug all that in and uh, and, and not claim too much and all the things you’re talking about. I agree 100 percent. I don’t want to say just buyer beware, but come on, we all have to be savvy entrepreneurs and look at things not necessarily through rose colored glasses or black glasses either way, but to allow our glasses to milled to what we’re looking at and bring her own common sense. You know, don’t be in business if you don’t have common sense please.

17:53 – Or persistence or half of it. You can’t. Everybody’s going to run into problems. And when you do run into a problem, it’s all about pushing through it and try something else. And just continuing. And that’s a, I see in, especially in the online coaching space, the people that I work with, they’ll, they’ll try something once and get crickets and give up. Say, Oh yeah, this isn’t the right thing, I shouldn’t, I shouldn’t do this and that. I mean that’s just a huge mistake because that’s going to happen at least at least once, if not multiple times for most people.

18:28 – But they don’t hear about that. Usually they usually only hear about the incredible huge success and they don’t see everything that came before that and all the mistakes and failures that that person had to go through. No one hits the ball out of the park the first time with no knowledge before. It just, it just doesn’t happen. So I’m really curious about specifically courses because I know our whole marketing, culture is, is really ha has been pushing toward online courses specifically for several, for a couple of years and I know there are lots of people that are getting kind of burned out on that and wondering whether this course is going to work because they’ve taken others and they either didn’t put in this web that they needed to put in or it didn’t speak to them. So they’re a little gun shy to go to the next one. What do you think is really going to be the next rung on this staircase for online courses or for course creators?

19:31 – That’s a great question. I think that the more we can get people to actually come back to the membership site and complete the course that, you know, the more people are going to get results, right? I feel like I’m guilty of signing up for a course signing in once or twice and then it just forget about it and you don’t come back and you’re like, you have the best intentions and sometimes too, you know, that’s all you need it, that’s all you needed to get yourself to take action and about something in that course. But for the most part, you know, it would be great to have people actually completing and they don’t have to watch every single video and do every teach sheet or anything like that, but at least getting enough that they can get into action on the topic and learn something and apply it in their business or in their life.

20:13 I think that is key for me. And there’s definitely ways to make that happen. So there’s like gamification where people can earn points for completing things, completing quizzes, unlocking, you know, bonus stuff for taking action. So that to me is huge and it’s going to keep increasing over time. I think there’s so much research research happening right now with gamification and if you’re not familiar with the chairman basically just means making something into a game so that you want to do it more, you want to win, you want to achieve and there’s even a historical kind of research that shows that we’re wired to do that. And some of the first kind of games that we had were like berry picking or like picking fruits and vegetables and stuff because that was for our survival and it was like every time you’ve got one it was like, oh cool.

21:00 – Like I did it right. And so it’s a very similar thing that you can build into your online courses to make people feel like, oh cool. Like I completed a module or I completed a quiz, or like I get this topic now I can move onto the next one. So I think that’s going to be really, really great. But then kind of the flip side, so what happens if somebody signs up but doesn’t complete something or doesn’t login for awhile, how can we follow up with them and that’s where kind of that tag automation with those crms comes in because you can actually track that. Right? So in the past we really couldn’t do much. There just wasn’t technology to do that. But now with Ssli and with a bunch of other tools with these crms, you can say, hey, this person hasn’t logged in in a week, that’s probably not a good sign.

21:41 – Let’s send them a couple emails, bring them back in and even you can incentivize them with points or with other stuff for coming back and reengaging with your course. And then definitely I think the things that we already talked about, like community is huge. I think when people work together with other people to go through a course or a program, it really increases their odds of sticking with it and completing and you know, when they feel like they’ve made friends, they’re on that journey together. I think that really helps a lot too and there’s definitely things you can do as a program leader so you can do live things, you can do things or people have to show up so they’re not just going to disappear off the face of the earth. And I think that makes a huge difference too. So there’s definitely a ton of different possibilities to improve that experience.

22:25 – And and also just to treat people differently. I think that you know, before we would just have like, okay, the content is coming out, you know, on week one, week two, week three, week four, but how about we let people go at their own pace, right. And let them, you know, if there are going faster, they can go faster. If they’re a little bit slower, that’s okay. We’ll just kind of keep up with them and make sure that they don’t completely disappear. And that really helps people feel like, okay, yeah, like I, I can fit this into my life because I think we’re all really busy, but when we sign up for something, we have this goal in mind or this, you know, outcome that we’re really wanting to achieve. So how can we make that possible for people? I think that is the bigger question.

23:06 – So I wanna go back a little bit because as you’re saying all of this, and I know this software really intimately so I can visualize all these things happening, but I also was around when you released the very first version of it and I remember just take us back there and like how, how did you just have the insight to know that this is what needs to happen? Because I know that that was part of the vision from the beginning. And how did you, how did you have that wisdom?

23:40 – Yeah. So when we first built it, so completely going back to the beginning. So we were using a different plugin on our wordpress website to run our membership site and we were on a different hosting platform. And every night I would wake up in the morning and on our website had been locked down from our hosts because there were too many login attempts and they thought that people were hacking your website, but it’s just that we had a lot of members that were free members for our list building challenge. So we had to think like 10,000 people. So they were lugging in almost every day. Got to go through their challenge. And then we realized, okay, we need a different tool. This is not working. Like we knew it was the tool causing the problem. So we just said, okay, well let’s just whip it up.

24:24 – Like, you know, it can’t be that hard. So we just built it, we built it for ourselves and I’m an early. It was pretty simple in the beginning, so pretty much just, you know, protected the content, created the password and send it to two people. But then we realized like, okay, wow, like there’s a lot more that we could do here. And we knew like we had other courses that people could pay for. So we realized that, okay, how can we show everything on like a dashboard or a hub area that people could see, you know, the free content that they get when they sign up, but also the paid content that they could purchase. So we kind of designed this dashboard concept and that was one of the first kind of things that we developed into it and it ended up making us sales.

25:11 – We were like, wow, just putting like paid things beside a free thing was enough to get people to say yes and sign up. That’s awesome. So then we kind of just kept going from there and we just like were like, okay, how can we get people to come back? How can we get them to consume more of the content? How can we keep track of what they’re actually doing? And I think that kind of data piece came in again and we were like, you know, do people get all the way through? Do they stop in one place? Is that something that we can improve, you know? And we realized that there are things we can do to improve this experience. And especially because we had so many people going through and then we knew, okay, yes, like people get stuck on day 10 or whatever, so that, that really helped us kind of continuing to design those features.

25:53 – And the other thing too is that we listened to our customers and when they were going through some of our paid courses, sometimes they were confused about which one they should take because they were just a lot of them. And this, you know, I had like over time created a lot of different small courses and I realized okay, yeah, I get it because if you’re in, you’re kind of starting out in your business, you want to learn different topics. Maybe it’s Seo, maybe it’s social media, maybe at school analytics. Like there’s just a lot of stuff to learn. So I realized like let’s put together a quiz to ask them a couple of questions about where they’re at and then guide them to the right next step. So then we built a quiz feature. I’ll all of these things were kind of, you know, like trying to understand what people were doing and kind of guiding them to the right, the right next steps for them, and then building those features to kind of support that. Right? Yeah.

26:44 – That’s, I mean, that’s an, that’s a great way to do it. And I just, I’m, I’m at constantly an all about watching that whole thing unfold. How I remember when your first version came out, it was like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. This is gonna solve so many problems that I’ve had with clients and then watching it progress from there. It’s just been fantastic.

27:07 – Thank you.

27:08 – Yeah, I agree 100 percent and I can see that, what again, tying it into what you were talking about before when we were talking about trying to keep people in the process and keep people coming back and gamifying it and that kind of thing. We could, I was just thinking what, could you have a process where you ask people when they first sign up? How are you at taking online courses? Are you a you want to get in, get it done and binge it or are you a slow and steady kind of so that they kind of bucket themselves or segment themselves based on their previous experience because you’re basically telling them, we don’t want to give you something you’re not that won’t respond that you won’t respond to because we want to make sure you get to the end and get what you, what you signed up for it. Do you have some kind of a, a structure for that?

28:00 – Where do you think that would be helpful? I think that’s a great idea and yeah, there’s definitely a way to do that too. With the quiz. Again, you could just kind of like super quick maybe one or two questions and based on how they answer, then you tag them and you could even show things differently in the membership site based on what tags they have. So you could say, hey, you know, this person needs a little extra encouragement. Let’s like, you know, pump that up or this person’s going to take, take their, you know, they’re just going to go through it really fast. So like we don’t need to extra any extra little emails or pushes. Yeah. Nudges. Exactly.

28:34 – Software already has that capability. That’s wonderful. That’s amazing.

28:39 – All right. People you heard that I think know access Say Hello.

28:47 – On it for sure. So. Okay, so, I mean, I think, yeah, absolutely. That’s the future of, of where membership sites are going for sure. And I think that’s, that’s going to determine, you know, gamification and community building and all those things are going to determine whether or not a course is successful because of the people taking it. If the people taking it are successful then then the course is successful, what pitfalls do you think there will be in the future? I mean, what, what things are you up against that are going to be difficult? Challenges to overcome?

29:21 – Yeah. That I think about this a lot. So I think that there are a lot of platforms for online courses that you can upload your content to and you kind of are competing with other people’s content. So like, you demi and like other places where you upload, I’m beside other people. It’s kind of like the place you go and then we can choose which course you want to take. And I think that that has advantages for the people who are on that platform because there’s already a lot of people, their learners who are going to take those courses. But at the same time as a business owner, if you want to build something longterm, I think that it can be a sort of like a, an obstacle it to go down that route because you will want people in your own membership site and you will want them going through your experience and not kind of comparing and deciding between your course in someone else’s.

30:09 – So so yeah, the pitfall is getting people into your membership site and getting them to kind of stick with you as opposed to being in kind of a market place where you know they’re going to get distracted and pulled into different people’s businesses and directions. So I do think that about that. A lot of this, I’m like split focus if you will, of like just being pulled a lot in different places and obviously everyone will have, they’ll be drawn to different people and it’s not like, you know, they can only be in one course at one time, but at the same time you don’t want them to be completely lost once they do find you and then disappear kind of thing. So that’s one thing is like how can we get people back to our sites and how can we be sort of that that google or Amazon or facebook kind of place that people log in a lot and really love what you’ve created for them. Well it doesn’t. That kind of go back to the basics of marketing in general. Know your audience, know who you really can focus on and help serve. And if you hit that, then, then that’s all you need to worry about. Yeah, I love that.

31:16 – Agree when you, when you put yourself next to someone in a marketplace of courses that really doesn’t give you much opportunity to showcase your uniqueness and what you bring to a specific niche or a specific market, um, you’re just basically a box next to another box and you can change the colors of the box you could do, but it doesn’t really show how you bring a uniqueness. So putting yourself next to all those other options isn’t, you’re right, isn’t really way to build a successful business. Speak to your uniqueness in your unique group of where your focus is and that’s the way to build a successful business. Yeah, I agree 100 percent. Wow.

32:05 – So how, what? So if we’re sitting out in the audience and, we’re thinking, wow, okay, memberships, we have all these options. Putting, allowing people to segment themselves, bucket themselves into where they need to go. I’m giving them what they need, part of a community, all those things. What, what tool would you suggest a people on the audience might use or a tip that you have to give them the futurist advantage because that’s what we’re all looking for. We’re all looking for not just that next thing that we can grab onto that’s a fad, but really to give us an advantage for ourselves and our customers. Do you have a tip for them?

32:46 – So I think that the tip is sort of like a mindset type tips. So I would say that I’m thinking about it from the customer journey perspective is the way to go. So it could be a membership site, it could be an email sequence, it could be your messenger on facebook, it could be whatever you want it to be, but I think the important thing is thinking about where your customers are when they first kind of get in touch with you and where are they going next. I think the more we can say what’s next for my customers, the better we can serve them and be there when they need us again. Right, or when, when they’re ready for that next step. Um, so yeah, asking what’s next. And that could be, you know, if it’s an online course that you have, maybe what’s the next online course, if it’s, um, maybe they start off with an online course and then there’s something that’s in person or maybe it’s um, they start off on messenger and then they join a live thing, I don’t know, like a facebook live or whatever.

33:47 – So just thinking about like, what’s next for these people and how can we move through their journey with them and kind of like walk beside them and help them with their goals and their journey. And I think the more we can think about it that way, then we can design those experiences that are gonna, help them achieve their goals and do the things that we promised that we can do. Right. So I think that that to me is huge and I think it’s more of a mindset thing than like a tool or a tech thing. But I think that is the future of marketing because you know, we are doing this to help people and I think that the more we can remind ourselves of that, then we’ll, we’ll find the right tools will find the right ways to do it as long as we’re focused on their kind of big goals or big outcomes. It’s all about the people. Yeah.

34:33 – Wow. And I just got to tell you, I, you just, I just had an amazing realization when you were talking and saying that because we can look at these tools that we have available to us in whether they’re a fad or not or facebook or Amazon or whatever, but exactly what you just said is walking along in the journey with our customers. We can look because we’re in marketing and we, if we are keeping up with what’s happening, we’re seeing all of the different things that are available to us, the different tools. And if we look at those different tools and go, okay, in my customer’s journey, how would that tool benefit my customer in the next step that they’re getting ready to take? So we can look at it two ways, we can look at what’s their next step and what tool can I use to help them get there and we can also look at it the other way and say, wow, there’s an amazing tool. How can that help my customer and the next step in their journey, we can look at it from both sides and really determine what is the best next step or what is the best next tool to use. That’s a great way to look at it. Wow. You just blew my mind.

35:38 – Love that. Well, Natalie, thank you so much for taking time this morning and talking to us. I think we all have just some amazing ideas and things to go and do now and, and, um, get the best, get the best results for our customers and make the journey something that they can really benefit from.

36:00 – Yes, very much. I appreciate your time. It’s been amazing. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me and I’m excited for everyone to take all these ideas into the future and, and really see what they create. It’s going to be awesome.