The Marketing Futurist Podcast

Mind-blowing inspiration to create and innovate

This is your futurist advantage!


With your hosts:

Mary Kathryn Johnson & Kelly Garrett

Ep005: How to Use Hard and Soft Data to Create a Personalized Marketing Experience for Your Audience.



Show Transcript:

00:01 – Hey there, marketing futurists, guess who? It’s Mary Kathryn Johnson here. And, unfortunately Kelly Garret wasn’t able to join us for this particular chat. I know she is kicking herself, so that’s all right. We’ll let her do that and get over that in a couple of days because I get to bring you someone that I’ve admired and watched for a while and just connected on facebook and twitter and just said, hey, would you like to come join us? And he said yes. You know, I, I’m just amazed every time that happens. So let me introduce to you this amazing gentleman on the screen here, John Koetsier. And John, welcome to the conversation. Welcome to the marketing futurist.

00:39 – Thanks so much for having me. It’s a real pleasure to be here. And you know what you said my name right? So 10 points already.

00:48 – Hey, my day is made. Thank you. Okay, so this is all about the future of marketing and not just the tools and tactics and what new software we should use and all of that. It really is what can we do, how can, what is our mindset need to be, what, what do we need to incorporate it in our lives and our businesses to really give ourselves that futurist advantage. So if you could, some of the people might not know who you are, if you could just start off with the introduction of yourself and your current Gig, whatever it is you’re doing currently, and then we’ll take it from there.

01:19 – Wonderful. love to. Thank you and thanks so much for having me. I’ve done a lot of things in my life. Had been a technologist, lead a development teams, built sites, apps, online learning systems, a lot of different things, but a common thread throughout my, my career has been writing and I studied originally to be a writer, a journalist, and, and, and did after going through a variety startups and tech companies and roles of that nature, become a full time tech journalist. And and currently I am not, although I still write for Forbes and inc. I can’t spend a day without writing. I don’t know. It’s a disease. It’s a compulsion, it’s something I feel better if I’ve written something and publish something that’s made it a unsick sorry.

02:13 – But the, the last role that I had as a full time journalist was for venture beat, which is a tech blog. And we did something interesting in one of the gigs I did. There was a marketing technology and that was an interesting time because, that was about maybe five years ago that I was in the middle of that and, and, and scott brinker was coming out with his massive landscapes of marketing technology and to the 1000 companies, 2000 companies, 5,000 companies, and there was something really obviously happening here. Matt marshall, I’m the editor in chief and owner of venture beat and I raised a little around the capital, raised a couple million dollars we hire, I hired some analysts, I lead new division vp insight and we focused our research attention on, on marketing technology because it was exploding, it was complicated, it was interesting. There was a lot of change. There’s a lot of uncertaInty. So we felt like we could make a niche there. So kind of what I’m doing now is, is, is I’m consulting with a lot of companies, tune in, seattle is one of them there. They’re a marketing measurement company, especially in mobile, a readwrite labs, in san francisco, a couple others and I still write for forbes and inc, which as I mentioned, I cannot not do, so that’s kind of who I am and where I am right now.

03:42 – Wow. And guess who got to join us? Kelly’s here. Yay. Hey, I’m so sorry that I’m late on. I, so appreciate your patience and you’re willing to kind of move things around. We’re very glad you’re here. And we’re basically going with this and starting this conversation and I’m so excited with what you just shared, john, because you know this, yes, marketing technology is exploding. Okay. So alrIght. Venturebeat a consulting marketing solutions marketing technology writing. Yeah. I can tell you’ve got both right and left brain and all that good stuff that people talk about, but especially the writing to be able to stay in that, in that space. And have to have to express yourself in that way. I get it. That’s that you found your niche obviously with the articles that I’ve read. Definitely. So with that in mind and where you came from, what, what, what life factors, what events caused you to choose this industry to cause you to actually go into more marketing technology?

04:49 – You know, it was, it was a confluence of things. I don’t know. I could be wrong. There may be some, some unicorns out there are some amazing people who have their life planned out and mapped out and they see it from the beginning and they go when they achieve it. And it’s incredible and wonderful and amazing. I haven’t met anybody like that. I don’t know, but I could only make sense of my life looking backwards, which is kind of funny if I’m sort of a futurist.

05:25 – So, you know, it’s just, you never know which experiences you have are going to set up the next opportunities in your life. You never know and it’s been. It’s been interesting into each life. I’m a little lemon. Must a drip, I guess if I’m going to massacre the metaphor and sting and all of us have had that. We’ve had career setbacks, we’ve had challenges, we’ve had, you know, thIs didn’t work out, that startup didn’t go this, this, this, this, this gig really didn’t happen the way I wanted it to and I’ve had those as well, and yet every single one of those experiences has led me to something that’s the next step that has been better. So there’s gotta be some kind of faith looking forward that whatever you’ve done in the past is going to build a something and unfortunately for me that has.

06:20 – That’s great. It’s great to be able to say that and have confidence in that because I think a lot of people look at their past and and say, oh, why did I waste so much time doing this? But to have the attitude that it’s, it’s there for a purpose.

06:37 – And to trust yourself that you’re going to make out of it whatever you need to make out of it. I think is the difficulty for most of us, and I include me in that, in getting over some of those difficulties is to then look forward and just trust. All right, the next thing is going to come. I’m going to take the lessons with me and do the best I can with what I got. Absolutely. Yeah. So what, can you get into some of the major obstacles that you had? Because we want it. We want to learn from them, obviously unlike our children, hopefully our marketing futurists can learn from our mistakes. So some of those obstacles and how you actually overcame them to be able to get where you are.

07:16 – Yeah, I think a big real big obstacles data. We’re drowning in data right now. And the question is, which day did you pay attention to which date is matters in which date is correct? We’re in this era of fake news, where, how do you know that that’s true? And it’s a very interesting time. There’s, there’s, there’s, there’s challenges because a lot of the data that’s being released right now is being released with a purpose in mind. There’s a lot of content marketing. I create some of that myself. I do research for companies in some cases and find interesting things are released and you’ve got to be able to look at data and say, hey, what makes sense? What fits together? You got to be able to analyze, um, what, what, what data actually matters and what data does matter. And one of the things that we did when we built, vb insight, which is the research from that I launched as part of venture beat.

08:10 – We really had this sort of big data, little data, a kind of metaphor kind of construct where we wanted to see what we call big data, which was device level data, device level data. So whether it was from, in most cases is for mobile. Obviously that’s where the digital ecosystem is these days, but it could be from other devices. WearaBles could be from desktops, could be from other technologies as well. But we wanted to see hard data that, that, that was hard to gain, and, and, and, and we wanted them to combine that with what we call little data, which was softer, more survey based data because I don’t trust surveys. People say what they say, they say what they think that somebody expects them to say. They say what they’re feeling that day because they had a bad day or they had a great day or whatever.

09:03 – They don’t remember how many hours or minutes they spent doing this. They don’t remember what they did in full details will construct a reality that makes sense. But that Is still a credibly valuable. And when you compare the, the hard data, the device level data with some soft data, the, the, the, the feeling, the emotion, the, the constructs that we build around the things that we do. I found that in that, in that interplay, there’s something really, really interesting. I was one of the challenges. Then, you know, what data do you look at? How do you combine that? How do you put that together? What do you do? Another, another challenge, and I think this is a challenge for marketing futurist in general and so much about being a marketer or a futurist, is building an economic model for what you do. So you, mary and kelly, you guys are a very, very cool.

09:55 – You have your agencies, you do your work, you’re doing this as well, the summit and other things like, you’ve built economic models that fit what you do and work for you. And everybody who is a marketing futurist has to build an economic model in some cases that’s working for a particular company. And that can be great. That can also be limiting because you’re with one company, one data set can be challenging depending on where you are in the space, how prominent the company is, how much data you have access to. In my case, that economic model I’ve built around, what I do is, is, is, is based on consulting with major contracts. I don’t do one offs. I don’t do, hey, can you do this post or hey, can you do this one report or something like that. It’s not interesting to me.

10:42 – It’s not worth my time, it’s not valuable and I have to look for something else every two weeks or I’m not interested, I don’t want to do not sell consulting with longterm contracts, but then also the basic journalism on the bottom. I love that for a lot of reasons. There’s some economics in it, absolutely. But there’s also just keeping really tight to what’s happening, what’s new and what’s what’s coming out. So that’s kind of some of the obstacles that I’ve had and some of the ways that I’ve worked to overcome them. I guess one more would be if you’re going to be some level of a futurist, you have to have some way of anticipating where things are going, and seeing the direction and the flow where things are going. It’s one thing, right, that many people can do that. And that’s why a decade ago everybody was a social marketing social media marketing expert. That’s why today, everybody’s a crypto expert. It’s. Sorry, go ahead. Oh, the same thing with bots, chat bots and messenger marketing. Same thing. Everybody. Exactly, exactly. So everybody could see where things are or whether there’s a hype cycle building and everything like that. The question is to lift the gaze a little bit higher and to see, okay, what’s over that hill and, and is this, is this, is a sustaining innovation in this model a or, or is this a flash in the pan? Or is this feature of a future product? Um, so there’s, there’s lots of challenges in those sorts.

12:19 – Wow. Okay. So I don’t know, kelly, go ahead. Do you have something to say that’s a great differentiation between not just being able to see what’s coming but beyond, beyond the horizon and how, how is that technology or that thing going to play out its life cycle and, and the only way I think you can do that is through experience and through living through some of the others, right? And you look at, okay, I saw email marketing evolve into this thing and I saw this other thing evolve into this. So, and you look at not just the one micro climates, but looking at the whole ecosystem of marketing and how that fits into it. I get that and I really, I need to know something you just brought up, which is that intersection between the big data and the soft day or the, the true data and the soft data. Okay. You said there were some interesting things that you came up with there, with that intersection between how we look at ourselves and feel about ourselves emotionally in that soft data and what we actually, what actually works and what we actually do with that. Is there anything more you can elaborate on that?

13:27 – Yeah, there’s an art to looking at data, right? I certainly liked to put the hard data with that, with that sort of perceptual data. I’m going to trust the hard data in most cases that that’s what’s actually happening. I’m not going to necessarily understand why from the hard data, there’s what but not why. And one without the other doesn’t work because we have to understand motivations in order to be good marketers, good futurists, good business people, right? If we don’t understand motivations and we don’t understand kind of the human element of things, if we don’t see the patterns of usage, activity, other things like that from the, from the hard data, then we don’t see the big picture either. But combining the two is the what and the why. I think that’s what is this true insight.

14:22 – So to be able to use both. So it doesn’t mean you don’t do surveys at all, but you can do them with the, uh, the glasses, the rose colored glasses to know that this isn’t hard data, this isn’t true. This is just possibly the why to understand the real data when you look back at your.

14:42 – And I’ll color that just a little bit. So, in terms of surveys not being true, I wouldn’t say exactly that. I would say if I’m asking in a survey, you know, um, how many times a week do you do x or something like that. I am not feeling confident when I get the data that, that is absolutely 100 percent true. It’s their perception of it is true. Their perception of what they’re doing is true. I believe that so, and that’s valuable as well. Right? That makes sense.

15:13 – Exactly, absolutely. and looking beyond the exact words that they’re using and inferring what, why they said those words and what’s behind it. Yeah. Right. Cool. So what In this industry, it’s a huge industry marketing, marketing technology. what drives you nuts? What drives you nuts about this industry?

15:36 – Two things. One, I’ll just briefly mention, and that’s the instant experts we just talked about and it was williams isn’t social. Somebody, one of my friends were just at south by and you know, everybody was a social media expert today. There are crypto expert, you know, all, all that stuff. That’s one thing. What does drive me nuts as well though is the massive flow of marketing technologies that are out there. I, you know, it’s almost impossible for a marketer to be able to manage and, and, and, and, and focus. You essentially have to ignore, you have to be very, very good at ignoring a lot of things in order to be a good marketer because you have a variety of things that come out of that. You have the shiny new toy syndrome where there’s always another tool that if you just had that tool, then you’d have perfect insight. Then you’d have amazing engagement, then you would have, then the doors would open and the pearly gates are open wide.

16:33 – It’s shining bright and beautiful. And you have everything you ever wanted. Yeah.

16:38 – Yes. That is a co, you know, marketers are, are, are, are pretty optimistic people in, in a lot of cases. And, and, and there’s that, there’s that myth there, right? And there’s, there’s a big piece in the that gets missed that in all this technology which is wonderful and amazing, incredible. And, and, and, and I used some bit and I, I helped produce some of it and other things like that. There’s pieces of marketing that have not changed since the dawn of time when you were offering a better rock to org in the cave in exchange for some meat or something like that. whatever it was, some barriers that he had gathered or she had gathered, right? There are pieces that have not changed in human nature has not changed. And that is really, really critical in the creativity. The data is incredibly important. The creativity is incredibly important. And as you know, the product is probably more important than both of them put together.

17:34 – Absolutely. And you know, we, we hit upon this theme over and over and over again that at the end of the day, it’s about the humans data and tools and technology is nothing without that, the understanding that we’re were people behind it all and people have real emotions and real life experience.

17:53 – Exactly. And real needs and marketers are trying to satisfy those needs. Hello. That’s. So where do you see the future of marketing going? I mean, look over that, that hill and kind of raise your gaze a bit and all these wonderful tools and technologies that you write about and that you’re helping develop and that you’re, you’re helping analyze. Where do you see it all going?

18:15 – Sure. So that’s tied pretty tightly with my vision of where technology is going, where matter is going. And it’s something that I call it smart matter, which is what we’re seeing more and more of around us everywhere we’re putting chips, uh, sensors, actuators or motors and radios into virtually everything around us. And I’m not just talking about smartwatches or phones or cars or you know, tvs or things that are technology per se, dynamo doors, walls, windows, you name it, roofs, those sorts of things. we’re putting the technology to understand, to sense, to react, to act and to communicate into virtually everything. How we see this in a smart home revolution. see this iot and industrial iot at ces in january, I saw some technology, $14 chip set, which gets you a google assistant in whatever product you might have a teddy bear. You name it, whatever, a water bottle, you know, anything that you might want. And I just wrote about a kohler has a smart meter, a smart mirror putting your bathroom, which has alexa and embedded and wrong.

19:38 – It’s not echo show your bathroom. So may or may not like that your call. But the point is that we’re building smart matter. We’re building smart products, that’s a different experience as a owner of buyer, I’m a as well as a different experience as a brand or a manufacturer really different, right? So in the, a couple of decades ago, a decade ago, five years ago, a brand and an and, and a buyer interact episodically perhaps in the store, perhaps on the, on the website or apps in the app, wherever it is. There’s, there’s, there’s, there’s this episode of exchange of value. And as marketers, we’ve always wanted to know what happened before that to make that happen. What happens after that to make it more likely that can, I can make it happen again. Right? Well, guess what, when you have a smart product, whether it’s a fitbit and apple watch and nest, something else, that’s attached to your eve charger, that tells you how much your car is charged, how much electricity used and how much it costs, all that stuff.

20:50 – It’s not an episode. It’s not one time. And essentially what you do, you have a brand walking through life with you. That’s interesting. It’s revolutionary is different. It’s scary. It’s a lot of different things, but you, you were walking together in la and that product is now not stationary because you are teaching that product above yourself. When you’re teaching that product while yourself, you’re teaching a brand about yourself and your teaching and brand and a brand. If they’re smart or learning and they’re adapting and they’re making that product better, smarter, different, old alexis. Never the same. Right? you, you, alexis starting to talk to me.

21:28 – Sorry to change her name. My son changed her name. She has now called computers. She’s not called the alexa.

21:36 – Precisely. You know, so, but you know, you keep getting these emails. If you’ve got an echo or anything like that and google home that bolt right here and you know, here’s what. Here’s what alexa can do today. here’s what alex can do this week. Here’s what google home can do this week and it’s changing. It’s growing. It’s getting better. That means that it can become more and more of an assistant. Can we become more and more of a valued member of my, of my life, of my family, almost. In a sense that’s different. Now the customer journey isn’t just random points popping up and you know, how can I make sense of these? How do I sort of draw a line and kind of reinterpret with, look in the rear view mirror, this is what happened, I’ll decide that and then I’ll know how to make it happen again with other people.

22:24 – Now it’s not an imposter, nice concept. What an impossible dream. It becomes real because you’re walking through life with your customer. There are some pitfalls and dangers in that, right? They’re, they’re, they’re, they’re, you know, data privacy is a big, big deal. You know, who are we when we’re being watched is our smart home was spying on us as much as its healthiness, right? There’s some challenges there, there’s no doubt about it, but it’s a totally different way of, of being a way of buying or owning a product and, and also interacting with brands

23:03 – And that’s new. That’s just in the last decade that we’ve been experiencing that, you know, 20, 30, 40 years from now, what is, what is that experience going to be like? That’s. I love that. Yeah. And I hear you with some of the pitfalls. The first thing that came to my mind is enron, right? Or some of these other companies that have cars. They weren’t as much in our lives and say alexa is. But as we get these companies and these brands and these products, and we become dependent on them. Okay, so let’s say my door. Now agaIn, I’m a star trek. I’m a trekkie, love star trek. So now let’s say my door just slides open when I walk up to it because it sends is who I am and it knows that it’s my door and it won’t open for anybody else. So that company does something that goes belly up. Is my door still work? Do all the products in my home, still work at how do I then transfer those and take out the chips of this one and put it. So lots of, as, as these companies become so intertwined in our daily lives and especially the large, let’s say alexa, let’s say google takes over all of that. Let’s say amazon takes over almost all of it and now we’re so dependent on that company. And that brand, what happens?

24:14 – Yeah, that’s very interesting and what not only the scenarios that you mentioned, but what if your, your, your smart home manufacturer, a you’re smart door manufacturer sells your biometric signature so that when you go to the mall or you go to whatever public buildIng that door opens for you and there’s maybe some benefit, but is there salt some cost to that? Right. We don’t know the answers to these questions, but we do know is there’s gonna be lots of mistakes. We’ve seen that in ilt. We’ve seen that in the botnets that had been created with iot devices, connected cameras with no security. It said men is the username and password. Is it equal across everybody and you can build a lot and do a distributed denial of service attack. It’s amazing. You’re going to see a lot of missteps here, but we’re going to eventually, I think own an ai individually as a family in some way, shape or form, which will help us, and I’m talking this is 30, 40, 50 years. It’s going to help us manage and control that data and, and do sort of permissioned releases of that, on, on case by case basis as well as more longterm scenarios and help us kind of manage and assist us in a lot of things. Will have a google assistant, will have an alexa that is more hours then the ones that we currently use.

25:37 – So, and I may not be hitting on the right words here, but what you’re saying is, is almost a universal protocol or language that we even if so, we’re not relying on the big companies to manage it all, but if they disappear, we can still have that functionality in that data.

25:56 – If you look at the world of software, we’ve solved these sorts of things with apis. If you look at, where apis have gone, you know, when epi’s first came out, it’s amazing. It’s incredible. This piece of software can talk to this piece of software. It’s a, it’s a, it’s a sort of a protocol engagement. You understand that, that what the communication. There you go. And then that became like, wow, there’s millions of apis. How do we manage this? It’s impossible. And then you have companies like segment or particle coming out and then you saying, you know what, hey, connect with us and will automatically accept any other api will actually keep all the data internally. Right? And so then you can do interesting things with it and you can do things like, huh, you know what, there’s thIs cool new new tool that I want to add, but if I only connected directly, it’ll only get forward looking data.

26:44 – So my actual roi is eight months, 10 months, 16 months out or something like that. But if I use one of these connectors that has why historical data and I connected in there, then I can get historical data and I can start getting roi immediately over. We take that to the personal realm and we say, hey, you know what, here’s my connector. John could see our connector, and, and here’s my personal data. I can plug new tools into that. I can plug old tools out of that. It’s got some standard protocols in there. And so my smart door that recognizes me and opens when I come up, I replaced the door because there’s a better door and it smarter biometrics. So it can’t be fooled with somebody with a face mask anymore and steal all my stuff. Right? Then we’re going to see some things, some things along that along that line

27:32 – That is so exciting. When, when can we get that? Why? No, no, no. What I’m thinking is, okay, I gotta get my son’s on this because if this is coming in 30 years, I’m, I’m probably not going to be in, in this world in the same way that I am now.

27:47 – It might be a brain in a, in a tube.

27:49 – There you go. Hey, no problem. As long as I can still talk and I can still write and mainly still talk because I’m a talker. So yeah. Wow. I mean that’s what an amazing concept to actually be able to. And I, I hope this can all fit into our society with governments and, and brands and businesses and all of that coming together because you know, all of those things have to happen in order for this to be successful, but what an amazing idea that we can actually, instead of being afraid of this whole data breach and all those kinds of things that we can actually have control of it, at least at least I’m perceived control over our own stuff and over our own choices and data and what new industries that is going to produce

28:37 – incredible. You know, what we have to thank for that is europe. Europe is pushing data privacy and security gdpr, right? What we also see, although we don’t see it at the federal level in United States, we see at the state level, California for instances pursuing something that’s gdpr, like ownership of your data. Right? And that is interesting. that is what’s going to open the door. Someone, a patient on a personal level here. Whereas we’ve only seen innovation around personal data on broad scope level, like a facebook or twitter or or or something like that. A google even. right? And so if you look at the companies that we’ve had come up in this era of broadly available data, we sell our data for a web searches so that we can service the way we sell our data so we can connect with our friends. We sell our data so that we can get a better experience with our nest or or something like that. You know, we still have companies like apple that are really, really hardcore about not using that data. What are we going to get when we have, you know, companies that are in the gdpr era that are in arrow when California and some maybe some east coast states passed some pretty restrictive laws around the usage of data. What’s that gonna look like? I think we’re gonna see an explosion of, of personal utility tools or the next decade and in response to that

29:59 – And people are going to need help navigating that and understanding how to use that.

30:05 – And take over the world will spend her days painting and singing.

30:10 – Wonderful. I’ll sign up for that. Just, you know, give me a place in Hawaii to do that. And I’m good. Or actually the italian outs yelp’s yeah, I’m good. Yeah. wow. Oh my goodness. So you know where to go, where to go with that. Kelly, where do you know, how do we, how do we bring that back to earth and and try and give. so here’s what we’re gonna do. We’re gonna ask. So based on what you’ve just told us, how, what tools or what tips can you give our audience to give them this futurist advantage so that they can. So they can start setting themselves up for this. The advantage taking advantage of this future that you’ve just laid out?

30:53 – Yeah, I think there’s a couple things. And, and, and I’ll start with one that’s probably pretty obvious. And then go to one that’s a little bit annoying. I’m the one that’s pretty obvious is, is talking to a lot of people, listen to a lot of people communicate and connect with a lot of people, whether that’s virtually on linkedin or twitter or, or whether that’s in person at conferences, you, you, the only way you learn is by opening yourself up to new experiences and being, having the kind of attitude of, of seeking them out, looking for them, them valuing them and, and then, and then kind of, taking this piece and that piece and this piece and kind of smushing them together. WhaT if and, and having some interesting conversations inside your own brain sometimes in a column or other places around that. The second piece that I’ll mention, which is maybe a little bit more annoying, is listen to people that you disagree with or talk to people you disagree with or that you think are wrong or insane or different thing. Our biggest impulse sometimes is to find reasons why we believe what we want to believe.

32:06 – This is. This is why fake news is such a big deal, right? This is one of the reasons behind that we want to find reasons why we’re right and, and we have to be open to finding things that, you know, what, that change the change my basic conception of, of, of what exists and what is and what and therefore what will be. And so There’s a couple of people that, that I have connections with in real life or, or social that I’m fricking annoying. People really annoyed. People hate them in some cases, know just rude in some cases or does know what, they’re smart and they have good ideas and um, and, and there’s, there’s value in that. It’s very tempting to mute or block in some cases in. And so I’m not talking about abuse of people, at least clarify that, but just people who may be really blunt and have different opinion and, and, and, and reasons behind it. And I want to listen to those. I want to keep them in my, in my social ecosystem, a virtual or, or, or, or actual analog and that challenges. And that makes me not only rethink in some cases, but maybe confirms what I’m thinking, something is what it makes me rethink that and make sure that I’m on solid footing, find evidence for it, and at least consider alternatives. And I think that’s very, very useful and challenging process to challenge our preconceptions. But it can often be a worthwhile process.

33:33 – Absolutely. And I think, you know, you’re hitting on that in that that is a huge ailment that we have in society right now that we’re so big on universal acceptance of everybody, but only if they agreed with what I agree with or only if they have the same views that I have. And so I think that is in many ways that is a, a fixed to many of the problems we face in society is just truly being more open and willing to hear the other side and break that down and say, well, why do they feel that way? What is it that they’re experiencing in life that gives them that objective

34:15 – Without judgment. Okay. Because usually will ask why do they feel that way? Because they’re evil and terrible and stupid. And all those terrible things, but really without that judgment and really try and understand from their perspective. And I think you’re right, I think that that one concept could be the antidote to many of the pitfalls that you just outlined as well. But this future, if some of those pitfalls, we, if we just look at these, these other Ideas, even if they disagree with ours from an objective nonjudgmental place, not that we have to accept them, not that we have to promote them, but really look at them and, and ask ourselves questions, deep questions, not just where can I find customers that may be some of the antidote that we might need to some of the pitfalls in the future.

35:05 – I agree. And it requires one thing. It requires a willingness to put the truth above winning. That almost never happens in politics these days, but it shouldn’t happen personally. You should have in politics, it should happen in marketing departments, uh, and, and, and let the data speak, let it be right, but to be good data, let’s question the data, the sources, let’s question the construction of it. Absolutely. But let’s value truth, which I believe exists in this era of fake news. Winning. Yeah. Yes. And that’s really the crux of this whole abundance mentality, right? When we get rid of this, this challenge in this competition of there’s only a little piece of this pie that we’ve all got to go after. Once we get rid of that. This is really fundamentally what we’re talking about is don’t worry about winning, worrying about worrying about doing your best and producIng the correct data and the truth, and all in providing the value and all will work out fine. I think, you know, we keep coming back to this, kelly, this whole kumbaya idea, right?

36:20 – Have, you know, we are human beings. It’s okay to let go of some of this stuff. You know, it really is, it, it behooves us all, it serves us all to, to treat people this way and to act this way ourselves. John, you know, thank you so much for sharing your amazing marketing futurist, um, personality data, a life with us, and we truly look forward to continuing to follow you. Continuing to tap into hopefully will be invited to be able to do that, or accepted to do that, continue to follow you and tap into some of the things that you’re working on because you have just again, blown our minds, right? Kelly? I mean, every time we talk.

37:07 – Absolutely this, there’s just so much wealth of knowledge that you have that it’s. Yes, it was, it was fascinating to listen to. Absolutely. Thank you. pleasure to be here. Thank you so much guys.