The Marketing Futurist Podcast

Mind-blowing inspiration to create and innovate

This is your futurist advantage!


With your hosts:

Mary Kathryn Johnson & Kelly Garrett

Ep004: Flying On A Rock Through Space With Quantum Computing And Love With Dan Gamito Of ManyChat



Show Transcript:

00:00 – Boy, Oh boy, I get to introduce you to someone pretty, pretty darn exciting we’ve got with us today. Dan Gamito who leads business development and partnerships at many chat, one of our favorite places. Hey there, Dan. How you doing? Hello? I’m doing so well. I’m so glad. And of course welcoming Kelly back to the conversation as well. Dude. Good to see you both. Yes. Alright, so, you know, we’re trying to give everyone in the audience the advantage of being the futurist, as much as we can. So we’re going to try and dive into your head a little bit, dive into your past and see what it is that got you here and hopefully give some of that juice to everyone in the audience. So let’s, let’s start with just an introduction, introduce yourself and your current company and maybe you know, what you did most recently or couple couple stories back that got you here.

00:54 – All right, cool. Well I’m Dan, my friends call me Dan G, I run business development and partnerships at many chat. It’s been a very exciting year as you can imagine. A Mike brought me on because he knew about my experience that convert kit. I was the first employee at ConvertKit and that was an interesting play because when Nathan started doing convert kit, he wasn’t. I don’t think he was really thinking that it was going to be an email marketing platform. He actually built the Beta tool that he built was just a form builder where you could collect email addresses and contact information. It was basically just like a lead ad that you could put as a pop up on your website because Appsumo was doing things like that. Those kinds of things were really getting traction, so as soon as he realized what he was sitting on was, it was not only a lead gen tool, but it’s a lot of people were expecting followup messages and emails.

01:48 – He built an email marketing tool and somehow this little kid from Boise decided that he was going to compete with people like Mailchimp and he brought me on to help him deal with a lot of things. At the beginning, one of them was marketing. One of them was just solidifying the audience, understanding our targeting. Understanding our positioning as a company and customer success. So I really cut my teeth a convert kit and that company grew extremely fast and all of their metrics are available on bare metrics. But yeah, that was, that was a really interesting experience and I think it prepared me for what I do here at many chat. Yeah.

02:25 – And is many chat going the same paces convert kit or faster or slower? What do you think?

02:32 – Yeah, so this is, I actually ran the numbers a few days ago because I have been just shell shocked by this whole thing and many chat has grown more in nine months then convert kid grew in three years. Wow. So, yeah, this is, this is like one of those companies that only comes around every 10 or 15 years. So yeah, I don’t know if that puts things into perspective for you or not.

02:59 – The big takeaway I get from that is pay attention to bots. Nothing else. Pay attention to bots. This is something we’re thinking about. Yeah. For at least for a minute or a minute for nine months. For maybe three years. Yeah, I mean, come on. That’s crazy. That’s okay. And that’s exactly why we’re doing this because the timespan is shortening really crazily. I mean it’s, it’s Kinda nuts. So. All right. So what about before convert kit and what else? What was going on there?

03:31 – Yeah. So, before convert kit I did a variety of things. I was kind of a lost boy trying to figure out what to do in the world and I still am to a certain extent, but before convert kit I wasn’t very focused. I was trying a bunch of different things. So, I started my first business when I was in my early twenties and it was a bakery in New York. Of all the things you could possibly try to do a food service business in New York as your first business, I just highly recommend you reconsider. But I was, I was young and completely naive. I didn’t know how to sell anything. I didn’t know the concept of business. I didn’t understand what you were really trying to do. It was a passion project. I liked making beautiful things. I didn’t even really know how to bake, but I, I really, I knew how to cook and I said, well, I can make anybody couldn’t break like an idiot.

04:18 – So I started a baking company and we did wholesale and we did all kinds of things, but I would like to talk about my first sale because it changed everything that I’ve ever thought life was. So we used to make many pies, miniature pies and they were gorgeous and I’m anal retentive. I liked to build things that are very beautiful and they were. They were really beautiful and super expensive and ridiculous and we were operating for six months before I sold a single thing. I was so afraid to put that one thing in front of somebody and just faced the possible rejection of it. I looked, I would look at these things that I built and I would say, this is really beautiful, but it’s overpriced and ridiculous and Daniel ridiculous. What are you doing? This is so stupid. So I would walk into every situation self deprecating.

05:04 – We were in. We started getting invited to things because I would showcase a things on online. Actually it was my first foray into digital marketing, was putting some of my pictures of pies online. People were like, wow, when are you coming to this farmer’s market or when you’re doing this thing and this is all on long island. So it’s kind of an insular. Everybody knows what everybody’s doing. And I remember the first time we said yes, we’re going to go to do a farmer’s market. And I took my best, my best pied like design and flavor to this farmer’s market in old bethpage New York. And this was kind of a farmer’s market that was, it was frequented by a lot of locals who were hippies. Basically. They just wanted to go get some radishes and some green things did juice. And here we were with this like fatty sweet dessert thing and it was just like the wrong audience.

05:50 – It was the wrong anything. But we’re sitting out in the sun. My Pi’s are like melting underneath me. And I was just so because I thought that they looked terrible and everything but this, this woman eventually at the end of the, at the end of the day, like kind of walks up and she, she looked like she was into deserts, let’s just say that. And she saw she saw my stuff and I was sitting there with my partner vic and we were kind of just like downtrodden, just like by this whole thing. And she looks and she goes, how much for five? I’m like, I mean I was like so down tried to that point I was going to send to give them, give them away for free. But there was something inside of me that was just like, just see, see what, what it would feel like to get a dollar for this stuff.

06:31 – And I was like, you know, you can have five slash five for $10. And I whispered it at her if I ever found out that $10 because it was just so far as like, so afraid. I felt so stupid even charging for this for some reason. And she’s like, okay, I put five little tiny pies in a box and handed them to a really fast. They were shuffling inside of the box and she hands me the money and I felt like it was a drug dealer or something. I was like, Oh shit. Okay. I couldn’t look at her in the eye. I like looked down at my thing. I was like, thank you. Thank you very much. I hope you have enjoyed them. And this, this woman walked to her car, it was like a jeep wrangler or something. I remember the car was just did not fit this person’s personality.

07:11 – And she came back like 10 minutes later and I was, we were packing up and she goes, those are the most delicious pies have ever had. And she just goes back to a car and leaves. So I got instant market validation. I had $10 that I didn’t have before and there was the first time I’d ever really sold anything. And at that moment I realized that I was number one in the wrong business. Number two, this was a revelation that you could build things that people might want, have the courage to put them in front of people and then, be compensated for it and that there was so much to learn. Like at that moment I knew what I didn’t know, like I was completely incompetent up to that moment and at that moment there was a certain degree of competence where I was like, okay, I see what I don’t know, I see that this is going to take a long time to figure out.

08:00 – And that just set a lot of things in motion for me in my life. So the pie thing happened. We shut that business down a year later because it was just so hard. It was just such a difficult racquet. I mean, I used to sell pies for weddings and we used to cater events with like 400 people and it was just two of us doing this and I didn’t like pies that much. So I just. This is a common story by the way, ladies, like people start passionate projects as their first thing and they totally get burned out on the thing that they loved and it’s, it’s, sometimes it’s a necessary evil to get your foot in the door on something bigger. And that’s what that was for me. So yeah. Was that a good story? Oh my gosh. I, you know, when, when you first started saying that, my first picture, I’m a total Harry Potter Geek, so my, my first picture in my head was fantastic beasts and where to find them and the guy who wanted to start a bakery in New York.

08:52 – I’m sorry if you don’t know that story. All the in the audience that are listening know exactly what I’m talking about it. And that’s the first thing that flashed in my head. Wow. What an amazing. Oh my gosh. Yeah, it does, doesn’t it? What an amazing story and so many lessons that you, that basically you just, you know, trial by fire, you just had to get out there and do it and no one can tell us. Could anyone tell you that? No, that’s not something you can learn by going to business school or anything like that. They did that kind of emotional wrestling that you have to do when you’re doing that. t’s not something you can learn by having somebody teach you. It’s like these are life lessons that the first time you break your heart, the first time that you get yourself into deep on something, like you have to go through these things and if there’s a lot of people who say you don’t and they’re trying to teach you how to avoid things and you want to believe that you can avoid pain and that you can avoid like learning in the world.

09:48 – But if you do that, you’re going to insulate yourself from a lot of magical things that could happen. A lot of self exploration that you’d never have access to before. And life is really short. So if you’re constantly insulating yourself from learning new things and being taken outside of the paradigm that you’ve built for yourself you’re going to be a really lonely person. And I did. I tried that for awhile too. And, and I became very lonely and isolated. So I think the thing that you hit on that was critical for me is the moment when, you know, you said you realized everything that you didn’t know or you realized how much it didn’t now. And I think that for a lot of people can be more transformative than simply trial and error and you know, and learning the right step to take even more importantly is realizing, having this moment where you realized, oh my gosh, there’s so much I don’t know, really kicked someone into gear.

10:39 – Yes. Or quit one of the two. Exactly. Absolutely. I, I, you know, I, I’m a firm believer in human resilience and the more people who come to the moment where they realize they don’t know anything, I think that that’s better for us as a whole, as a species because, there’s a lot of people walking around in this world who think they’ve figured it all out and they project that on everybody around them. And, it’s a source of a lot of pain. A lot of people love taking up other people’s space with all the things that they know and uh, sometimes you know, there’s certain rebel that we tend to have and people who think they know what they’re doing and then they crashed. They fall and into this pit of flames. We write movies about it, we write, you know, plays about it.

11:20 – There’s songs about the person who, who has it all falling this because there’s a certain delight in seeing that kind of false power structure fall. And I think it’s, I think it’s primal. So like I said, any chance that you have to prove yourself wrong, I encourage you to take it. Absolutely. Absolutely. And obviously we wouldn’t have this futurist idea without that, without falling in the past, right? We wouldn’t embrace these things and embrace and say, okay, what don’t I know about this and what can I find out? Yeah. Well, I will say with certainty that I would not have seen what messenger was going to be five years ago. I wouldn’t have had the capacity to see it for what it is without some of these really hard lessons without understanding how people actually like to communicate without having some moments of acceptance about where we are as a, as a species, as a culture, like there’s a lot of psychology in this culture that I was very afraid of and kind of a judgmental of for a very long time and that was spanning from a lot of self judgment, but the way messenger is used, the way that these communication channels have evolved, I wouldn’t have had the objectivity to see the potential, uh, without really diving deep and letting go of a lot of my own biases.

12:35 – Wow.

12:36 – Wow. All right. So we had to dive a little bit more into that. From a, for ms do t specific standpoint of. We’ve already talked about mindset. We’ve already talked about your own biases and things like that. But then what, what made you jump from email into messenger so quickly? What, what made you really decide that this was the next step and it was right for you?

12:58 – Sure. So that’s a wonderful question. And some horrible memories come back. So no, that’s okay. Late late in my tenure at convert kit, I was like, flame out burnout. And when I think of one of the reasons why that was happening was number one, the growth was insane at that company. Nothing compared to. I mean, I can’t say nothing, but it was substantially less than what we’ve experienced at many chat. But at the time it was the most, it was the fastest growing thing I’d ever worked on for sure. And pretty much anybody on the team could say that about, about it as well. The thing was, one of the things that made it really difficult was that none of us really knew a lot about email. So I’d written email campaigns. A weird thing that happened after the pie business was I got obsessed with the Internet.

13:47 – I, I realized that a lot of our traction had happened because of twitter and because of, a kind of a little blogging strategy that I accidentally fell into and this silly little website I threw up. And like that concept of digital marketing, the ability to get a message in front of large amount of people at like for basically nothing blew my mind, the fact that you could influence someone’s decisions based on some words on a page, just like my rainbow glitter was flying out of my eyes. So I was really fascinated with this concept. So I taught myself web design and I realized that there’s really no money in that because I didn’t want to work for like small businesses for nothing. And then I realized that actually words are really powerful and I’ve always been okay at words that boy like semi competent with words.

14:30 – So at least on the written page. And I loved copywriting. I love the concept of being able to influence people with words. So that led me to copywriting. And then I realized that some of the best things that you can do for businesses is right cold email templates and marketing sequences for them in email. This was this very strange thing from going from like being an amateur pie baker to like a professional email marketing copywriter, that, that all happened in like two years. It just was a very, very quick learning thing for me. So that’s what introduced me to email. I understood email as a functional tool for getting a message in front of people. I had no idea how it worked. Okay. I had no idea what the protocols were. I had no idea what the problems that you could face were. So, later in my tenure at convert kit, we were facing some really fundamental existential issues.

15:19 – Number number one was spam. We had an API that we had opened up, but we hadn’t done a good job securing it. We also had no vetting process for people signing up. So at one point we were having like 100 spammers signing up a day getting on our API and spamming out a million messages than shutting down their account. And, it was a disaster. I mean, our deliverability scores were tanking. We were getting flagged by every major ISP, we were getting flagged by a lot of the spam organizations all over the world. It was terrible, like there were a couple of weeks where I didn’t sleep and our biggest customers are coming to us and being like, you didn’t deliver 50 percent of my emails this month. I lost 50 percent of my revenue from this channel. Like there were points at which I was going almost fly to like some of these people and just like sit with them in their house and like hyperventilate with them because that’s how I felt.

16:13 – It was just like the worst thing I’d ever experienced as a professional. So, there’s also like just all kinds of other stuff that I didn’t, I didn’t ever want to know about things like dkm and spf, SPF records and like servers and all these different things that I didn’t, I never really cared about until I had to. So during this horrible time, my and during horrible times in general in my life, my mind goes into 10, 10 x overdrive. My mind is an amazing optimization machine. It’s always trying to solve problems. I’m very strategic minded, just my, my, my biology coupled with early imprints, who knows, but that’s just how my mind works and I’ve embraced that and something happened and it was this weird thing about two weeks into this like siege. I felt like we were being besieged by a bunch of trolls and it was terrible.

17:02 – It occurred to me that email was a terrible platform. Like it was just an awful platform. It was outdated. It was built on a technology and a pro, a set of protocols that were kind of ancient and ridiculous and didn’t account for all these new ways that people do things. And at that moment, my, I remember the exact thought process. It was like there has to exist a protocol right now where you could have peer to peer messaging where it’s instantaneous, which would solve a lot of problems with email. It would be end to end encrypted or it would basically, it wouldn’t rely on the middlemen that much to like deliver the actual message. You’re going to get better deliverability and better engagement. And one’s the one that’s more conversational in nature. I remember thinking, if you could build a protocol like this, you would solve all the problems of email or like 80 percent of the problems of email.

17:56 – What I didn’t realize was that in my naivete, I basically predicted what messenger could be as an augmentation to email. There were already messenger platforms. I didn’t, I didn’t use them. And that’s why I didn’t put the, the dots together. Then I kind of wish I would have put the dots together then. But I remember thinking there has to be a protocol that exists. There will have to be at some point because email is so saturated, it’s so noisy. And for businesses it’s becoming a cost center and it’s really, it’s really not fun for businesses. They have to deal with these deliverability issues. So Lo and behold, here we are and messenger marketing is taking off like nothing I’ve ever seen before. And I think it’s because it solves so many problems that email has presented. And it’s, it’s amazing to see that, I don’t know if it’s for the reasons that my brain predicted, but I have to say that I have to give myself credit on that one.

18:52 – I say go for it. Yes. Yeah, I think that’s totally true. And I agree 100 percent. I don’t, I have to admit I don’t use email at all anymore for any of my markets. That is crazy. I just don’t know why. For me anyway, why put the energy and the time into something that gets so little. I’m sure. So yeah, I get it. Wow. So did you go searching for many chat or did they find you? Oh No, Mike. Mike found me. Yeah. Well that was pretty cool. That was like, I, I, I’ve been sought out as a consultant before, but I’ve never had a company come to me and be like, we need you in this role and this is what we need your help on and we can’t not do all of your time. Like we just need all of it. I’ve never had a company do that.

19:42 – And that was a really interesting situation because the first time I read the email from Mike because he found my email address and like he’d done a lot of research on what I’d done and he came to me with like this really good cold outreach email. Frankly, it was one of the best cold outreach emails I’d ever read. And I was like, this has to be, this has to be like a spam. Like this Russian kid is reaching out to me via email about this great opportunity. I’m like, what are you, what is going on right now? And it was like FBI. Yeah, it was for sure. I was like, all right, they found me goodbye Portland. So yeah, I reread the email like 30 times. I was like, I couldn’t get it out of my head. At first I bend it. I was like, well, what the hell is this?

20:23 – And then, something about it’s stuck because he was so thorough. He was so thrilled. He had researched everything I had done. He was like, I followed you when you were doing this. And Oh, remember that thing you did it convert kit. I’m really impressed. I’m like, what is going on here? You’re either a stalker or this is just like some crazy good bot. And luckily I read it like 30 times and decided to have a call with them and that was it. I was like, oh, the moment that he showed the broadcast feature because. Because it was still kind of a prototype and the moment he showed me the broadcast feature, remember what I said about the protocol that I predicted it. It was, it was this, it was this thing when he showed me that you could instantaneously send a broadcast to another person at a business could do that to a consumer or one of their customers.

21:04 – I was like, Holy Shit Man, Holy Shit. And I kept asking him, facebook opened these up like the facebook just this up. Are you sure about that? Like, do they even know what’s about to happen? And that was, it was history, it was history from there. And so when was this? That was about a year ago. Yeah. That’s crazy. Yeah. So much has happened since then. It’s yeah. And so what, so in this industry, and obviously I know so well let me ask you this before I asked you that what. So we know that bots are here, we know that bots are the future. We know that all that stuff. Do you know if there’s or what you, what are you projecting? What is your brain doing now with the possibilities beyond this or where do you think this is going? Yes. Okay. Really great question and I think I know the answer to that too.

21:53 – So there’ve been a few situations in our culture, in our, in our world where we look back 15 or 20 years and a situation that we had in our life is now like an snl skit. You know what I’m specifically thinking about the, the old brick phones that were like the first cellular phones that were just so cool. Everybody was like, Holy Shit, look at that guy. He’s got that thing. It’s talking to satellites and you see these people running around with them now it’s a trope, right? This ridiculous phone. And we have, we have a point where smartphones are commodities at this point. I mean everybody’s launching a flagship phone and it’s, they’re super computers. There are apps like the iphone 10 that just came out has more processing power than a laptop I own five years ago. Like this, it just, everything is, it’s just not.

22:49 – So I think we’re going to look back, maybe I don’t know when it’s going to be because there are some fundamental barriers that we’re running up against with this thing I’m about to talk about, but we’re going to look back at some point maybe in 10 years, maybe in 15 years, maybe never. But it’s, it’s possible sooner that using apps, using web browsers, using all the things that we use right now to get jobs done are, it’s going to be like quaint thing. I’m like, remember when you had to like type in your password and you had to do the thumb thing on your thing. So, it’s gonna be ridiculous that we ever did all this work to memorize user interfaces and like open applications and manually type shit. And the thing that’s going to be the factor that changes that is, is ai.

23:37 – Okay? So Google is investing so much money into this. Facebook is investing money. Apple is doing Siri, which for better for worse, is part of this that the dawn of the assistant is going to be upon us very soon. And what I mean by that is, we interact with interfaces right now. We interact with physical objects, we interact with, with abstractions. Okay. And you have to memorize so many things throughout your day, just like, how do I log into this? How do I use this piece of software? So much money spent on user experience design right now because every APP is trying to optimize how you get to your desired outcome and all this stuff and stuff. Well, the thing about it is all that stuff is pretty dumb. Like having to do all that stuff is extremely inefficient. It takes up a lot of cognitive resources.

24:27 – There’s constant decision making, which just sucks the life out of you all who works in tech and has to memorize five different sas products just to do their job, knows exactly what I’m talking about. So here’s the thing, there’s going to be a point at which we have, all the technology in place where you will be able to ask for an outcome. Say I need a box and it needs to be this dimension and needs to be this dimension. It needs to be done at this time and it needs to be made out of this material. You’re going to say that to an interface and five days later that is going to show up on your doorstep without thinking about logistics, without having to even swipe a credit card. It’s all just going to happen. The reason why that hasn’t happened yet is because we don’t have the computational architecture to be able to handle those kinds of optimization problems.

25:16 – I dare anybody in this audience to go into Google right now. Google maps and try to program to different direction, like to different destinations into a bus route. Okay. They keep track of they, they, they usually communicate with your local municipality so they can get bus route, bus templates and stuff. Try to set to destinations. Google can’t even do two destinations on a bus route because that’s, that’s too complicated of an optimization problem. Where you’re actually asking google to do is, hey, what are the within this time window, which bus should I take to get here? There’s five options there. And then from there, which bus should I take to get to this other place? There are 12 options there based on the timeframe I just gave you. That overloads Google’s brain. It doesn’t know how to say, well, you should do this one and then you should do this one because of this, because we don’t have the machine learning capabilities for it to be able to make that decision for you yet.

26:06 – It’s because of the computational architecture that we’re constrained by right now. We have a computational architecture called von Neumann architecture. It’s what powers everything that you know, um, it’s, it’s the, the Zeros and ones. So here’s the thing, a google and a couple of other very giant companies are working on something called quantum computing and quantum computing is a really interesting technology because it is perfect for solving these extremely complicated optimization problems. So when I say optimization problems, I’m thinking about things like how do you tell Google that you want to go to three places, you want to take a bike, a bus, and then, and then it tells you exactly which one to do in which order and why you should do it. That’s an optimization problem. That’s actually a problem that a human can solve if you just sit down and think about it, but it, it’ll take you 15 or 20 minutes to do that kind of planning.

26:55 – That’s the kind of cognitive power it takes to be able to make those kinds of optimization choices because you have to be able to wait, why are you doing this? Why are you doing this? And why are you doing it in that order? So the thing about our current architecture is it would take a computer like 40 years to do that, that, that computational problem, they can do it, but not in a reasonable amount of time. What the promise of quantum is that it’s going to be able to do this optimization problems in milliseconds. So imagine offloading that cognitive like that massive amount of cognitive energy you have to spend on optimization problems to a machine that can do it a million times faster than you imagined the interfaces. Imagine all of the things that ai will then be able to help us do that.

27:35 – It just can’t do right now. It’ll take us, it would take 40 years to figure out that bus route for you. It could take a quantum machine, you know, a millisecond and a half. You could be asking it life advice and it will give you examples of what you could do to lower your phospho lipids. It could, it could give you, can give you so much information that you just don’t have at your disposal right now. It would be a true assistant. The breakthrough I think is going to be in quantum when they coupled quantum with ai technology and machine learning. You’re going to see an explosion of assistance to the point where you might actually see some ai doing people’s jobs where you have some kind of a person who needs to make optimization problems happened. Something like, an air traffic controller, think of an air traffic controller and all the decisions they have to be making an all of the factors they have to be thinking about. What if you had a machine that was just designed to make those kinds of calls? Error rates would go down. I mean, there’s so many different things that are gonna happen with, with, with, with that, and I think that coupled with messengers, imagine being able to just talk to a thing and have a thing done in your life and you don’t have to think about how it’s getting done. It’s getting done. That’s where we’re headed and I think that’s. I think I’m right.

28:47 – Wow, that’s amazing. I think I trust you. I’m following means. Leave me please.

28:55 – What’s going to be awhile? We have a lot of technological hurdles to get to get through to get there.

28:59 – Right. But there’s so much evidence of that that bats, you know, and you as someone who clearly has studied even further and you know, you’re paying attention to what’s going on. Yeah. I was no doubt in my mind that will be there.

29:13 – That was a coy way of saying I’m a nerd. I, I’ll take it though.

29:16 – No, not at all at all. I think it was an awesome way to say some things that is. So nerds are gonna take over the world. Right. That’s it. That’s it, right? Yep. So was that a satisfactory answer? It was kind of pie in the sky. You just blew my mind. I think we all just need a moment to let you know this my cognitive process or here has to catchSo thinking about that then and thinking about if, if this is where we are and that’s where we’re headed, what drives you nuts about the current industry in order to try and get there? What, what drives you nuts about this whole process right now? Oh Wow. That’s such an interesting question. I the things that drive me nuts about this industry are the things that drive me nuts about myself and the human condition in general. Like I, I’ve wrestled with something a lot, being in the industry of marketing and sales and software and working with marketers all the time and working with brands like the only reason any of this stuff works in my opinion is because people are clambering for other people’s attention. Okay. You have brands that want your attention. You have your bank wants your attention because you’re late. If you have an overdraft, like basically we live in this world where attention is a commodity and you can literally go onto facebook ads right now and buy people’s attention if you want.

30:46 – It’s called facebook ads. The facebook ads platform and thing is it’s deeply concerning to me that we live in a world where that’s what is important. That just getting somebody else’s eyeballs on something is the most valuable exploit in business. And I know that to be true because there’s just the amount of money being spent on facebook ads everyday by some of our customers is insane. It’s awesome. It’s really fascinating. But there’s another side of it which is kind of scary to me, which is that people are so busy looking at this thing in front of their face, like they’re so busy, on screens, they’re so busy looking for the next thing. And I’ve studied my own psychology. I’ve studied other people’s psychology. The concept of identity is a, is a really terrifying concept to me because people get violent about their identities.

31:39 – People get afraid to lose their identity and what we do online a lot of times, especially on things like facebook, is we’re looking for reasons why our identity is okay, where we, we joined groups that reinforce our identities. We comment on posts which, which seemed to be challenging our identities and the algorithms love showing us what we like. They love showing us what we want. And the thing about that that’s terrifying is that you can go into this little bubble, this little safety bubble, and just see the things that you want and facebook, it’s in facebook’s best interest to keep your eyeballs there so they’re not going to show you things that are contrary to what you believe unless you’re the kind of person who loves talking shit on people who don’t believe what you believe. And then it’ll show you a lot of those things because you’re super engaged on those posts.

32:25 – But the thing is that when you let machines decide what they’re going, what, what’s what you’re seeing there, just going to mirror yourself back at you because that’s what ai is right now and that’s what all like. They have some really advanced ai doing a segmentation and modeling of your personality so that they know how to show you the right stuff. But even with that sophisticated stuff, it’s. It’s just muscle memory. It’s just looking at things that have happened before and it’s optimizing for that. And if you’re this kind of person who just spends a lot of time on facebook, you’re going to see what you give it. And that’s terrifying to me. Like I love facebook. We’re completely dependent on facebook. I think it’s a miraculous tool. I think it’s going to be one of the biggest thing that’s changed the way that we think about ourselves in the world, possibly ever.

33:07 – But, it’s also horrifying because people pay so much attention. They’re isolating themselves more and more, which I think is completely the opposite of what the mission statement is. Like we, we as a species, we like taking shortcuts. We love taking cognitive shortcuts. There are people who have studied this Amazon diversity Dan, and they talk about cognitive bias. They talk about mental shortcuts and heuristics. It’s just the way we’re wired and we have almost no knowledge of ourselves to know that that’s what we’re doing when we’re clicking on that red button to get that notification, we’re taking a shortcut. We’re taking a short cut to something that we hope is going to bring us more than we already have. Instead of focusing on what we already have, so what drives me crazy about this industry is not the industry, it’s not the tools, it’s not the insane cronyism or like the stuff that’s happening in companies like Uber, like it’s that stuff is crazy, but that’s, those are symptoms of something much deeper and it’s the fact that we will see that brands will stop at nothing to get the attention of people and it’s working.

34:15 – The reason why it’s the reason why people do that is because it works really well if you’re trying to sell something, but it’s exploiting a behavior that is fundamentally isolating and kind of scary to me. So man, that is a huge thing for me. Like I’m always thinking about the balance, but it absolutely is. Yeah. Great. Wow. I don’t know if that was a good answer now, but that’s. It was honest.

34:39 – It is. And how do you balance that? I guess on a personal level, I think you, you do the best you can and like, you know, you watching your facebook feed, you’re someone who’s out there traveling and experiencing life and that’s just what you have to do. You have to take yourself away from the screen, right? You have to, you know, put your head up and be aware of the world around you. And that’s the only way that, that these, this marvelous technology advancement is going into to still make us as the human race around. That’s the only way we’re going to survive.

35:17 – Sure. My, my way of coping with this, I think I’m becoming more and more aware of it and conscious of it is I cultivate relationships. That’s actually the thing that I do best. So I love bringing people together. I love connecting people with resources that they need to accomplish things that they want to do. I surround myself with exceptional people, people like you who actually trying to do something interesting and who were, who are not just in it because it’s working, but because it’s interesting and they want to be a part of it. I get to work with some of the most fascinating people as a result, and I get to have face time with fascinating people and really, uh, become a part of their lives and they get to become a part of my life. I have a neat little network and a family that I’ve built in this industry of people who are super real.

36:01 – They’re super real people and they do marketing stuff and they sell stuff, but that doesn’t make them fake. It doesn’t make them inaccessible. So I cope with it by loving people really hard and, uh, and accepting people and helping them and not judging them for trying to do stuff.I tend to, in my life, I’ve had a tendency to judge myself really harshly for things that I want, things that I don’t want, things that I don’t understand. And that translated to judging other people. And I didn’t realize that until a few years ago when I started becoming competent at being a human being where I was like, wow, that’s not really super productive. To be judging yourself so hard. And it’s certainly isn’t productive to be judging people for trying to accomplish something. Everybody’s on their own path to figuring out whatever it is we’re supposed to figure out while we’re like flying on a rock through space.

36:51 – I don’t know what we’re all here to do, but like we all have to decide what we’re doing. And I got into this mentality where you’re either going to help this person who loved the shit out of them or get the fuck out of their way. So we’re talking about marketing futurism and stuff. But actually what we’re talking about is a lot of human stuff. If you want to step into the future, I would encourage you to get into the mindset that it’s not really about you. It’s about, it’s about loving people. And this is his life is kind of scary sometimes. And uh, if you can take compassion and love into the copy that you write into, the relationships that you build for your business, like all of this different stuff is going to translate in, in totality into a very healthy growing experience for you and the people that you touch.

37:34 – So nothing’s gonna be perfect, you’re not going to understand what’s going on half the time, but if you hold something true inside of you and that’s just compassion and a little bit of kindness, you’d be surprised about the things that are going to just fall into your lap and you’re going to write better copy. You’re going to do better for your business. If you’re approaching it from the standpoint of I’m helping somebody accomplish something and I’m not going to judge what they’re trying to accomplish, I’m just going to help them get there or I’m going to get out of their way. You start writing less intrusive copy. You start to e more compassionate in a way that you’re communicating with people. You start asking people for permission more. You start being more of a real person and you know what? You know what people respond to on Messenger. Having conversations with people. That’s all in. That’s all it’s about. So compassion is actually the root of the best copywriting I’ve seen on Messenger. To tie it back to messenger, can I just say, Dan, I just love you so much. You incredible human being. And I am so honored, so honored to know you. I know both. Amazing.

38:37 – These, the everybody in the audience, if that didn’t move you to, to try and be the most amazing person, compassionate, loving person you could be in everything you do, not separate business from personal, not in that sense. Don’t separate that out. Be Be who you are everywhere you are. Not trying to be something on facebook that you’re not, not. Try and look for other people who were being something amazing that they’re not. We’re all, like you said, rolling through space on this rock together. Come on, man. Let’s just, let’s just be. That’s true. Wow. Wow. I, I can’t follow that one up. Amazing gift that you just gave all of us and I’ll hopefully thousands of people that are going to be watching this. That’s amazing. I’m so glad. And I think that was a pretty darn good tool or tip to being a marketing futurist. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Wow. All right. Well, you know, um, I think we’ve blown people’s minds enough. I think we got what really, uh, what’s coming next, and Dan, I know I speak for, I cannot wait to see where you go and what you do and please just, you know, Kinda keep me back here and Kelly

39:51 – Yeah, we’ll be here and help you however you

39:57 – because I just, I’m just so, it’s just so incredible. Thank you. I appreciate you both. All right. Have an amazing day and A. Yeah. Here’s to the future of marketing, right? Indeed. Alright, bye everybody. Thanks.