The Marketing Futurist Podcast

Mind-blowing inspiration to create and innovate

This is your futurist advantage!

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With your hosts:

Mary Kathryn Johnson & Kelly Garrett

EP 016: Working With Clients As A Marketing Consultant With Jacob Warwick

Show Transcript:

00:02 – Hey there, welcome back marketing futurists, Mary Kathryn Johnson here. You know Kelly Garret, and, we get to introduce you to a gentleman we recently met that might bring a bit of a fresh, fresh face. Yes. Fresh voice to the whole marketing scene. Let me introduce you to Jacob Warwick. Hey there. Jacob, how you doing?

00:28 – I’m hanging in there. It’s 8:00 in the morning. So when people watch their podcasts, they watched in the afternoon, in the evening, just realized some of us had to get up early to do this.

00:39 – Well, we certainly appreciate that. Definitely. And I’m, I’m up at that at that time as well. Had to try and make everything look halfway. Decent video. Oh my goodness. Well, I’m start us out, Jacob, with just kind of introducing yourself and your company and what you’re currently doing. Let’s just start there.

01:03 – Sure man, it’s a, it’s a laundry list when you’re in marketing, that’s for sure. I think a lot of marketers who are a lot of hats. So my background has been about 10 years in digital marketing, primarily in Silicon Valley. I had a, I guess I kind of have a background in journalism and reporting which tied into content marketing as, as it grew. I’ve done anything from integrated campaigns, email campaigns and getting crm is integrated with marketing campaigns. A lot of time in social media because if you remember about eight years ago, any business would say, oh, the kid does social media. So that was their business answer. So I always had to find ways to keep my job so I can be on twitter all day. Right? So I ended up learning a lot about social media marketing and how that can grow and how social media is filled, filled with content, why you need to create good content that resonates with your audience.

02:01 – A, I guess you can throw any buzzword in there. But I’ve worked in kind of the gamut of integrative marketing for 10 years with high growth startups. I guess the biggest company I’ve worked with a xerox as their director of marketing for a period as well as companies like my fitness pal through acquisition by under armour and, some smaller tech startups like clear voice that I’ve worked with a lot of Martech companies as well. And when you work with Martech, you end up marketing to marketers about marketing. You need to learn a lot about marketing, which you learn by doing all the marketing and then you have to talk about it and sell it to marketers. So, you know, you kind of get the full gamut of what’s going on in the industry when you’re trying to figure out what everyone’s looking for content wise. Yeah, I can relate to that a bit.

02:54 – I guess my business, is, is primarily focused on consulting and I do really well in Btby and the tech world, particularly with products that are more expensive than your typical impulse buy. So for example, if I were working with a team like buffer, that’s not a good fit for me because it’s a $10 purchase. It’s more of, you know, you kind of buy it and sometimes you forget it and you don’t use it, or you know, you keep using it everyday. It’s the greatest thing. You’ve had a, my concentration is primarily on software in the enterprise realm, so something like salesforce or something that can cost your company 30 to $50,000 a year and you really need to understand the value it provides at that point. So some startups do end up working with enterprise software more along the lines of I’m in the mid, mid to upper class of business sizes, so 200 plus a growing to a thousand plus and things like that.

03:54 – Got It. Wow. Okay. So that sounds like, I mean, you’ve gone through a lot of different facets from the small little kid handling the social media, up to enterprise level. And you know, I love that talking to marketers and selling to marketers and doing marketing about marketing. I mean it’s, it’s like a total vicious cycle that basically feeds on itself to get to your head. It’ll confuse you. I’m just going to say like feeds on itself. It’s like eating its own foot. I’m talking about marketing and I’m doing. Yeah. Anyway, we’re going to leave that, that visual alone. Um, but in that you’ve talked about a lot of different events and uh, aspects of that marketing career that you’ve taken. What, what obstacles did you encounter it in that whole trajectory of the last 10 years?

04:49 – I think obstacles in terms of my career, particularly in Silicon Valley and high growth startups typically expectations are up here and the, I don’t want to say the talent level, but the maturity level of the marketing team is usually a little bit lower than the expectations and that disconnect causes a second. You mean like expectations in terms of results and what you can do. So for example, you know, obviously everyone says, you know, we need to point to Roi will you to point to the purpose of why we’re doing marketing. Great. That’s absolutely true. You obviously want to put, so you put a dollar in, you want a dollar 50 back, things like that. In silicon valley it doesn’t always work like that, it should be like that, but in a venture based company they’ll have, you know, we just need users at any cost so that we can get our next round of funding.

05:41 – So what I’ve seen in that disconnect in that friction between marketing maturity and expectations, a lot of stuff can get thrown out of proportion. So for example, you find people that, you know, let’s talk about growth hacking, let’s just grab 20,000 users in India even though we have a United States based product. So to the vcs it looks like the company is doing great, but in reality it’s not doing too well because the expectations that markers would lose their job if they didn’t get the number somewhere. So there’s a big disconnect in that. And then you get things like inflated numbers that really aren’t that important. So it’s that. I think that’s probably one of the biggest challenges that I’ve seen, as well as marketers are usually the last to hire and first to flyer. So there’s a really high turnover rate because you have to prove your worth right away.

06:33 – So I’ve always been focused on, all right, how can I, and it gets kind of into your analytics mind, right? You’re like, how can I prove value on this campaign? You know, what’s the purpose? Like how do I show my boss that I’m worth being here, which is kind of always a little bit of an anxiety, particularly for younger marketers in Silicon Valley from what I’ve seen. And I, I think that that challenge is escalated with the increase in salaries that are expected in the valley as well. So for example, pull in a marketing manager’s making 80, $85,000 a year to start and they might only have a year or two of experience and that’s just what it costs to be in San Francisco. So from a business owner perspective, you’re hiring marketers that may not know what they’re doing at a pretty elevated rate and you’re kinda like, all right guys, let’s go, let’s go.

07:23 – Let’s, like I’m, my burn rate is here and we’re not getting results because it takes time. You know, a lot of marketing strategies take years or five years to get brand activation going and things that we forget about nowadays, like the importance of building a brand and a startup isn’t going to come and be Uber right away or you know, it takes some time to build that. And how can we show. I’m sorry, don’t mean to interrupt. Go ahead. So how do you sell that value right away in a short amount of time? So the, the copout answer for most marketers is that depends because it’s. Well, let me see. It really depends. Again, I try to manage expectations from the front before you even start the campaign. So it doesn’t matter if you’re doing an email marketing campaign or social marketing campaign, you always want to point back to a purpose that the business has.

08:17 – So for example, we want to reach, and I’m going to say millennial audience because it’s so popular for someone to say millennial audience, even though that’s not actually a segment of people, it’s just, you know, what would an executive sometimes. So we want to reach the millennial audience. So we’ve noticed that on their channels, they’re on snapchat, facebook and instagram mostly, and our product has a visual component so we can be there like that’s a purpose to start experimenting with those communities. So you start setting goals like you have the big goal of reaching that audience, but you set goals along the way to measure to make sure you’re getting there. So when it comes to social media, a lot of that has to do with engagement metrics. It’s more along the lines of who you’re connecting with and how that’s driving value to your business rather than how many people you connect with.

09:06 – So I think, you know, you can argue the value of alike in this chairs and, and you know, paid advertising on that end, but at the end of the day it’s really not worth it unless it’s driving business for you. So again, it’s gonna come down to your purpose for that campaign and the goals and then setting bench markers along the way to make sure you’re achieving those. When you do that, you also can kind of see like, oh, we’re not hitting our goals. We can cut and run early before we invest another 10 or 15 or in silicon valley numbers $250,000 into this campaign before we realize it’s failing.

09:42 – Yeah. And so do you think, like, like you said, about managing expectations that in the early stages when you’re trying to build a brand and you’re trying to just get going on social media or digital marketing, it’s more about I’m explaining to your clients that we’re not necessarily going to be tracking dollar figures. It’s not necessarily about revenue at this point. For the start, we’re concerned about numbers and engagement and that sort of thing. Is that.

10:11 – Well, I don’t think that’s. There’s no catchall answer for that. Yeah. Yeah. Some clients have a high level of marketing maturity in which you’re supplementing their efforts in driving revenue right off the bat. It really depends on the level of marketing maturity that you’re working with. You’d be surprised that even larger organizations businesses I’ve worked with, clients that have 20 to $30,000,000 in annual recurring revenue and they only have one person on their marketing team now. I don’t care how good you are as a marketer, one person is gonna have a hard time marketing company of that size, so there are juggling. They’re doing the content, they’re managing the blog, they’re working with freelancers and agencies and they’re reporting back to the executive staff there. Working with the sales team has to juggle, so when you come into an organization like that that has the resources, you can quickly build a package that works for them.

11:03 – Whereas a smaller team, you kind of want to manage expectations slowly. Like, all right, let’s let’s take baby steps with this. Right, and make sure we were testing our processes and building something efficiently before we work on scaling. And typically in my experience, clients really liked to know that you don’t want to spend all their money right away, want to spend their money. When it works, right? You’re going to have to invest a bit in understanding of your strategy and what kind of tactics you should use to execute that strategy, but you don’t need to go full like, you know, feeding someone out of the fire hose just like a ton of content or a ton of processes before you know, you know the value that it’s going to provide for you and whether or not you can even execute that. I think one of the best examples I could give for that is I don’t know how many marketers have been in this, where your boss comes to you and says, we need to be blogging.

11:56 – Like, that’s, that’s it. That’s the only advice you gave. This is our direction. We’re going to be blogging. And so you put the work together. You, you write a great blog article, you really want to do a new campaign. You give it your best effort. You know, you’re right, your blog content, you interview a few people, you do all the right channels, you’re making relationships. You get the article published and then you reach out to all of those people and you say, Hey, look, we published this article. You’re in it, you know, we also got featured in Forbes. This was great. We send it through our distribution channels, right? They’re going in, they’re going into communities that are relevant to that article there. They’re talking to people that if they, you know, they did all of the right steps, so really high quality piece, and then their boss goes, wow, this did really great. Now do five a week.

12:41 – You’re like, do you understand what goes behind all of that? I mean, that’s, you know, you have to understand the entire process holistically before you try to replicate it several times because you’re going to start running into headaches were in you as a marketer who is always kind of facing the guillotine, right? Because if you’re not proving results, you’re going to lose your job. You’re, you know, I’ve, I’ve seen that a lot of people are willing to just say, yeah, alright, I’ll do five a week and they’re going to be terrible. You’re going to get less value and that’s going to create and amplify a, I guess you could say noise. That’s a popular term we like to use in marketing. That noise that’s out there, you’re not going to be creating anything of value, especially anything that’s better than your competition and it’s really kind of a moot point just so you can get a paycheck.

13:29 – Well, and so if you could take that, that I agree 100 percent. So if you can take that and a lot of the people in our audience are building their own marketing business and I’m trying to communicate these kinds of concepts to their clients, not just their boss. Obviously their client is the boss in that respect, but you know that person that they are trying to sell this campaign to or sell this concept to. So how are they, what would you advise to be able to set those expectations to be able to, to clearly and without getting into all the weeds, you know, because the boss comes to you and says, write a blog post. It does not care about you going through and taking either writing a whole report or taking a half an hour of his time explaining everything that goes into that blog post. So how can they in a, in a very efficient but yet clear manner, set those expectations and help the client understand to be able to manage those expectations. So because I had this situation happen recently.

14:36 – Yeah. So I think it’s a bit different for me because I spent more time scoping my clients before working with them. Um, I’ve never really been one to just take work because I need it in. I think that’s something that marketers need to take into consideration. Obviously getting your agency off the ground as a challenge. Um, you want to just take this or take this or take this client. You’ll notice it. A lot of good agencies once they start growing, start firing their old clients because you get into a position where they’re just handing you all the work you don’t want to do.

15:07 – Right? You don’t know anything about that. Right?

15:10 – You don’t know anything about that. But to answer your question more, more clearly, and again, this is my perspective here. I take longer to scope and spend a lot of time in my scope and discovery process is often a lot of client education. So not only is it seeing if you’re a good fit and you have the skills to match, I’m sure you do. If you’re opening a marketing agency, you’re probably already a step above marketing maturity than the clients are working with, but you really take time to educate and understand who you should be talking to and how to sell your product. So again, it’s a slow process for me. Sometimes I’ll scope a client out for a year before I do it, a big retainer push or things like that. And in the meantime, it’s not that I’m spending a year on a proposal.

15:56 – It’s nothing like that. It’s just weighing out where that company is, how I can best help them in that situation. Because to be honest, I don’t really want to write blog posts. No, at least not that often. The understanding and in opening your client’s eyes to what you can do is going to help them just start trusting you. So you feed them education, you, you tell them how it’s going to relate to their business. You’re always giving that value in building that trust. Now I realize that not a lot of agencies are going to have that, have that luxury of being able to educate right off the bat. Sometimes they’re just like, I want a proposal and five minutes and you’re like, okay, if you need the work, you’ll do it. If you don’t need the work pass, right, you’re going to learn who you want to work with pretty quickly. And how to grow your business. From there. I’m just have the expectations that it’s okay to say no, on certain deals if the education doesn’t match or you’re not a great fit or if they have, if they want you to do something that’s way out of your realm, then maybe it’s not worth the opportunity. I would say that in many cases if somebody offers you a great opportunity and you don’t know how to do it, sometimes you just take it and figure it out.

17:10 – But you know, maybe that’s another discussion and that could get you in big trouble sometimes too. What I really like about everything that you’re saying in this kind of segues into discussion about the future of marketing as well. But what you’re saying is that pretty much everything is about kind of a custom approach or personalizing what you’re doing with the companies based on where they’re at with their marketing. You could even take that a step further and say personalized things based on what their customers are doing and where their customers are at. And that’s a really common theme that we have seen with people that we’ve been talking to when it comes to the future of marketing. And so. So I feel like basically what you’re saying is you need to have your marketing chops. You can’t just go and take a strategy that people are proclaiming online. We’ll make you billions of dollars in 90 days.

18:10 – You have to know how to, how to do it at the end of the day so that you can mold what you’re doing to each client and I think it’s okay to. I mean maybe not for an agency, but if you’re a small business owner, I think it’s okay to not know what you’re doing. I think in a lot of ways small businesses have an advantage in their marketing in that particularly if you’re a two man shop, right? If you’re the head of your company, you’re the only person that has that three 60 degree view of everything that’s going on. You know, your customer better than anyone else. And if you bring some marketer in to help you with that, it’s going to take awhile for them to get up to speed and understand even 90 degrees of what you know about your business. So, you know, I think there’s an advantage and even having a less marketing knowledge in that regard, you just need to think about. And that’s where a lot of clever ideas come out, right?

19:01 – And they think, oh, what’s the best way for me to say a photographer? What’s the best way to market my photography business? Well, I take pictures all the time. I’m wanting some advice. I gave a. A photographer was, you know, when you’re in town and you see a couple or whatever and you offer to take a picture of them with the polaroid and that’s your business card. So it was like a little thing that’s like, oh, it’s a tangible piece of marketing that it’s not a business card, not a real business card in the traditional sense. It’s not paying facebook advertising so that people can go look at another photographer. It’s like this person came to a special moment where I was with my fiance or whatever and I got a tangible picture that I’m going to put on my fridge because nobody has real pictures anymore. It’s things like small businesses knowing that for me, one of the most effective campaigns done for my business is to direct mail people in the marketing industry.

19:56 – Send them marketing book. I’ll send them a marketing book with me that I signed, not sending them. I mean, the other day I sent an handling socks with her dog on it and little things like, because we were thinking about her, I mean I was having a conversation with a couple of other so called marketing influencers and we’re like. And Ann Handley came up and I was like, Oh, have you seen her dog? It’s so cute. And like we talked about it and I went on Amazon, I spent $7 and I sent her some lucky socks and little things like, just to encourage relationships and that’s not be publishing an article in Forbes that could cost thousands of dollars in time to make sure, you know. And I’m not saying you should pay to put articles and publications. I’m saying in your time to create, or you could hop on Amazon and get that somebody alive. We send Christmas cards out. I’m afraid to share who we are. If you don’t say an I take cute pictures and send them to people that we work with and wish them happy holidays or Christmas or whatever. And those little kind of wouldn’t say they’re out of the box, but they’re so simple.

21:06 – Well, and you’re talking about people. It’s like, and well in my world, especially in consulting, that’s how the world is driven. So it’s not, I’m talking again, this is b to b, um, this isn’t necessarily driving a big consumer product. So again, I’m not sure on your audience size what they prefer, but I think you can take that personalize as a step in your marketing as well in the future is going more segmented, more targeted, and you don’t really have a choice because the big brands are already killing it, right? They can personalize, like starbucks can personalize your experience in the mobile app and change the music that’s going on in the store and you can’t compete with that and it’s not your fault that you can’t compete with that. But the consumer is not educated to a point where I expected this great experience from whoever I do business with and whether you’re capable of providing that or not, I don’t care. So from a B to b standpoint, if you’re capable of providing a next level, like I’m giving value, I’m giving that relationship. I’m not asking for too much ever, you know, I’m genuinely interested in helping you. That’s going to set you above all of the, you know, the thousand inbound messages on linkedin where they ask you to connect and never respond to you again. You have to go that extra step. Making a difference, especially in Btby. Yeah.

22:31 – And I liked that because I think as marketers it’s very easy to say, well, what is the next biggest tool or gadget that’s going to help us stand out in the crowd and stop the scroll on facebook. Yeah, exactly. And it’s not a tool because everybody else is going to be using that tool. So it’s about the simple really simple thing. Get creative.

22:53 – Yeah, that’s what I really liked it. Obviously algorithms and robots and tools, they can make our lives easier. But again, if everybody is following the same algorithm and everybody’s going to have the same type of content and they’re going to live in the same information bubble. So in order to stand out, you’re going to have to do something different, you’re going to have to interview real people, you’re gonna have to see what their thoughts are and when it comes to marketing tools, like the greatest tools, the one you actually use, I’ve been with companies that will spend thousands on software solutions and they go, yeah, we don’t actually use that because you don’t like a sauna, a sauna as a great product. It’s a great product for people that use it. I’ve seen teams that spend money on a sauna and no one on the team wants to use it because you’re so familiar with just sending tasks back and forth on slack.

23:40 – So it’s just a waste of money. And I wouldn’t say anything negative about their platform. They’re, you know, they’re there for them. But the team’s not using it. Now, things like, I’d really recommend a tool called sprout social. It gets very, like, very easy to use and it’s for align expensive, but small and midsize businesses can usually still afford it if there’s a need for it. But I would never recommend it to somebody who doesn’t want to put the work in. You need a. it’s really good for community managers and social media managers and if your team only has a content manager, it might not be a good idea for them because they’re already managing writers, they’re managing graphics, they’re managing all these other things. They won’t have enough time. You use that software effectively. So there might be another solution for the tool is not the answer to your problem. The two else sit only support what you’re already doing. You should already know the process in the end goal that you want. So for example, you’re working with a PR agency right now and we’re pushing about 50 articles a month to 35 different writers and 12 publications and I’m responsible for all of this in a very limited amount of time because they’re a client of mine. So we can’t handle all of that in Google docs.

24:54 – I need a system to be able to see that. So right now, and because I’ve worked with clear voice, I have a pretty good partnership with them and they let me use their software so like, well I might as well use it and check out how it works and build the processes together. But I already knew that I have this need and previously we were, we had editorial guidelines living in several different documents in Google docs. We had emails back and forth from different team members going to editors and so if you can imagine everything being siloed off rioters to we’re sending content back in notepads, in word documents in Google docs in pages. And so I get this and are all right, I need to pull this out, put it all into a universal format so the editors can expect, you know, what they’re getting and pull images out and find a good way to, you know.

25:41 – So it’s like a lot of silos and there’s organization. Whereas rather than using those five things, I put everything into clear voice and I can send my guidelines to each writer specifically in. It appears that an editorial calendar for me and I just go, oh, this is a day late, I need to talk to them, or you know, I can leave at a tutorial notes directly in the platform and they don’t have an option to send it in word or pages or any other thing. It has to go through the system. Oh, instead of invoicing, I can pay them directly through it. So I eliminated like three or four pieces of my process in every piece. I eliminate as 10 to 15 minutes of headache and when you multiply that by 50 articles, 10 to 15 minutes, even if it was only 10 minutes and article, I mean you’re saving weeks worth of time in productivity and efficiency. That’s when a tool becomes useful. For example, if you’re on facebook all the time and you just have to keep logging onto facebook to publish your business posts or you know, any social network and you get distracted by the other stuff going on and you start scrolling or whatever offers a great solution. Just throw it all into buffer and hanging out. Again, I, I’ve cautioned that with a caveat because I don’t think you shouldn’t have robotic posting of all of your own self serving interest, but you get a point.

27:02 – Yeah, but you can also use that to retweet repo share posts. You can do all of that. And in buffer it doesn’t have to just be your own content. I’m sharing your own.

27:13 – It will. Cool. Also leave the note that I don’t use social media automation because, and I don’t care if I go three or four days without posting. I know that sounds like a travesty. I don’t care if I have 10,000 followers or two followers. I’m using it to build relationships and the people that I am connected with on twitter or am connected with on Linkedin have, they’re there for a purpose. A linkedin’s a little messier than it should be, but it is what it is.

27:41 – Yeah, it’s tough. So I have a feeling I know the answer to this question, but I’m going to ask it anyway. What really drives you nuts about this industry?

27:50 – What really drives me nuts. I need to take a second here. There’s so many times that I’m reading a post on, you know, from a socal, so called social media marketer or content marketing influence or a guru or somebody that takes pictures of themselves and quotes their own cell phone it and then shares it. I get it if you’re actually famous. I’m Joe Montana and here’s Joe Montana’s coach. Joe Montana doesn’t share that. No, no. It’s nothing against anyone personal because I do understand that you need to play the game to a degree in order to get influence. But someone like on linkedin specifically, there’s like a one line sentence and then a space and an Emoji and then a lot it was like you need to do this to grow your business and, and funnels and like Hashtag. And like I’m like, oh my help anybody?

28:51 – Or they’ll say, you know, and I know how to play the game because I’ve experimented with it. You say something provocative and then you provide no value, but people comment on it because you said something provocative enough. Like they’ll say something like, women don’t belong in tech and people will be like, that’s outrageous. And then they’ll start ranting, but then they’ll be like, is what one boss said to me once, and then they’ll like, and then send them [inaudible], who do you think about this? Obviously it’s going to rile people up and with some ludicrous statement and then they’re like, they get 100,000 followers from it and all of a sudden they’re an expert on marketing. Or, someone will start an agency and you look through their experience and they’ve never had a marketing job in their life.

29:36 – Okay. Or you know, what, what really gets me, and this is more of an ego problem, but somebody will say something very negatively towards me and I shouldn’t take it personally, understand this, the internet and someone says something negative towards me or they’ll decline. Like a proposal that I have. Like even marketing isn’t really the experience we’re looking for because this is what I know about marketing. And then I go in their experience and they’ve never had a marketing job. You know, I’m 22 years old and I have a cmo job. Like, no, you don’t. The soldering, I’ve battled that because I’ve had seemingly elevated titles for my experience. I didn’t go to college. Oh, I started marketing right at 17. Like that was. I didn’t even realize it was marketing at the time, but I was doing marketing jobs. I was doing video content, I was doing interviews, I was writing an email.

30:28 – I was managing a 50,000 person email list at 17 years old because for whatever reason my boss trusted me with that. I’ve been doing it since I was 17 and I’ve seen like a lot of bs out there and there’s, I would say that 90 percent of influencers and 90 percent of marketing advice to me is bs because it doesn’t apply directly. Like it doesn’t mean it’s not good for someone else, so there’s that caveat, but it’s just you have to be careful what you read out there and really put a lot of your head into it on like, wow, this is great. The snapshots really good at this audience. Your ox doesn’t need to be using snapchat. Just popular in general over generalizations I think in life in general is silly. I’m overgeneralizing an entire group. We’re all b people. I’ll be to see people. Oh, millennials all know everything is specific to your business, so any writing that is not considering those different angles are providing real actionable advice. Kind of hurts my feelings.

31:39 – I would prefer I would prefer someone who’s cut their teeth at actually doing the work and figuring it out. Then five Mbas or master’s degrees in marketing exists.

31:55 – There’s a lot of value in going to school. I would never knock it by any means. I think the connections that you can have and what you learned about marketing and and human development and psychology and the fundamentals, those things are universal. Like you do need to know that. Okay, and you can learn that in many different places. It doesn’t have to be in a college education in the college setting.

32:19 – And again it’s going to come now you can have 20 years of marketing experience and not knowing what you’re doing. There’s a lot of people that are in roles that have great titles that make $300,000 a year. Like, I don’t know the difference between analytics and email campaigns. It’s just interesting like the, I guess like putting too much thought into like a title or someone’s experience isn’t necessarily an indicator or a precursor that they’re going to be great for your business. I think a lot of the best workers that I’ve hired have been me because my budget is cheaper, but have been friends of mine that I knew were very intelligent and I just gave them a problem wanting to see how they solved it. I knew the answer to it. Then I would have done it myself, but I, I trusted other people to, you know, give them guidelines and sometimes you can find ways to get your marketing done in a very cost effective way without having to invest in that really expensive marketer.

33:16 – Yeah, no, I get it. No, I get it. And I, what I hear you saying is I’m just what are, what you were talking about with consumers when they walk in and they have that expectation of that personalized experience be as personalized to be as authentic, be at all those buzzwords, be as I’m present with the problem in front of you as you can rather than looking to generalizations of this is what I should do because they’re their audiences millennial or this is what I should do because their audiences, ecommerce, brick and mortar, you know, be as present and working out the problems and the issues of whatever’s in front of you, the client, the customer, the relationship you’re trying to build, be present, be billed that on a one on one personalized basis.

34:10 – Yeah, you need to understand the resources that you have as well. I’m particularly from an agency side, if you can utilize a use, if you can use the resources that the client already has, that’s going to make them happy. You don’t come in and say, Oh, you’re using marketo. I only use hubspot, so I’m going to ask you to remove and do a new marketing automation for a lot of folks, especially c level folks to come in and fix the company and they’ll just completely rework shop something that they’re familiar with rather than adapting to the situation they’re coming into. So it wouldn’t recommend like a client that has freelance writers. I wouldn’t recommend hiring more freelance writers. Like let’s see what your freelance writers can do before we clean up shop and you don’t need to come in. Maybe the problem with your writers is that they don’t have leadership direction.

35:03 – Maybe you need a content manager instead, you know. And this goes in marketing because so much of marketing is both creative and analytical as well as managerial and task based. So you have the strategic and tactical thinkers. Tactical thinkers will be really good at just getting stuff done and doing it well. Strategic thinkers are going to be really good at understanding all the tactical pieces that need to be put in place to reach a goal. You have those two types of people and you’ll have the creative people that again, they’re going to be good at creating things that are new and original and then you have the analytical people that are going to be really good at managing and understanding how that fits in the brand, but he’s awesome. So what happens is you’ll hire somebody as a director of marketing, but they’re actually a creative director.

35:52 – You don’t know the analytical side of things and don’t know how to point back to the business goals, but you only have the budget for one person. Do you want the creative route in your analytical side is struggling or you go the analytical rob, you’re creative is terrible, right? So you have like really highly technical things that only engineers could understand and nobody else. So you’re not telling your story to the whole side. So there you have to manage the skillsets and resources that you have. If your team is very creative, the only thing that we’re lacking could be direction and give them a, a leadership role, you know, give someone a leadership role to manage that. That has the capabilities in their career to do so.

36:29 – Yeah, I had to, I have to say there’s one especially I know Kelly and I have been working with and, and talk to a lot of people who are coming up, whether it’s in their own agency, whether it’s in their own small business and they’re looking to say bots or chat bots or ai or different kinds of futurist ideas in marketing, to move their business forward. And I love what you just said with the two sides. And there’s a really good book, I think it’s called rocket fuel and it talks about how are you need both sides of that. If you, even if you’re a CEO, if you’re a leader, you need that operations person. If you’re an operations person, you need that leader. So one can’t really exist without the other. You can’t just be a leader and not worry about that. The operations, you have to find that person and be very strategic in finding. It doesn’t have to be a business partner, but it has to be that role is being filled because a company needs both of those things. They can’t exist with just one.

37:30 – Yeah, and I would say it’s the entrepreneurial conundrum as a small business owner myself, when you have to do everything, like I’m the CFO, CEO, whatever, because it’s great to have those resources. I think a lot of those gaps, if you’re a small business owner listening and it’s a man shop or were only a couple of us, I think a lot of those roles can be filled by mentors and help balance you out. One of the biggest challenges I have is that I’m not particularly analytical or creative. Every time I take the test I can be 55 percent, 45 percent, and when I do the extrovert, introvert as extroverted as I sound, it’s exhausting. So I’ll be 55 extrovert, 45 introvert. So I guess I don’t know if that means I’m bipolar and my marketing bites.

38:17 – There is a new term for ya.

38:20 – Yeah. Let’s write the book on Mike Marketing. Bipolarity.

38:24 – Yeah, there you go. So take us into the future though. Jacob. Let’s, let’s go into the future. So what, what tool or tip do you feel the audience needs or that you can give our audience to really give them that futurist advantage?

38:39 – So yeah, because the audience is going to be diverse and I, I’ve, I’m repeating something that I’ve heard a lot of other marketers say, so I’m really not trying to copy them, but a the end of the day, everything’s going to boil down to empathy and putting yourself in the customer’s shoes and actually doing it what you think their shoes are like, but actually talking to them, working with them, building relationships with your customers as you grow in that knowledge and have that kind of drive to understand them, you’re going to understand what they need more. For example, I was talking with clear voice about this because clearvoice and I have been on retainer in the past. We’re not currently just a caveat, I’m, but I’m working through their system and I’m thinking, Hey guys, it would be really great if you sent me a guide that I can send my freelance writer, so I don’t need to teach them how to use your software.

39:29 – So clear voice aside can go, alright, if I’m in the user’s shoes, what can I do to make their lives easier? What is their typical day look like? So I sent them pictures of my tactical workflow, like this is what I do, this is where my pain points are, and I color coded it like this is smooth, this is smooth, this is smooth dye a friction here. This is nearly impossible for me. It’s a real big headache. And they see that. Then they go, okay, how can we alleviate this stress along the way for our, for our customers. But for me, I’m managing 35 writers. I don’t have time to teach 35 writers how to use their software. They should want the software should be good enough to know that already a two. If they can provide any training materials that I to give my freelancers, I’m going to be much happier with clear voice and more likely to stay with them as a partner.

40:20 – So that can go with any business. Right? So my dad is a wedding disc jockey. He provides a, a, a wedding checklist, just like as part of the meeting, hey, like these are all the things you need to make sure you’re doing for your wedding, and obviously those exist on pinterest and those have been around forever, but he was doing this in the early nineties. Check Louis, like, oh, like a bride to be. He goes, oh, I almost forgot about my flowers. Like God forbid, have bright forgets about her flowers I don’t like because it was a local base business, very small in northern California. He knew all the vendors in the area. He know who, who knew. He knew who to recommend what the costs were, and created a guide that says, look, if this is your budget, this is who you will save so much time for that.

41:08 – And little things like that, like having a wedding checklist of your competitors, not competitors, but I guess other, other vendors doesn’t necessarily help. Your Business, isn’t directly relating to the sale. You already got the sale, but they’re more likely to say, wow, they really helped me through the process and I will recommend them in the future. And that can be carried on from small business to large enterprise businesses beyond the sentencing accompany gift basket and a bottle of wine because they spend a grand on your account. What if I instead invested all of that into creating a piece of content that helps everyone in their teen years? So did a training for the moment, workshop little things. It’s the only understand that by putting yourself in their shoes, what are they going through right now and how can I help them?

41:55 – And that ties back into what you talked about too. It ties back to the whole setting expectations and communicating clearly and being personalized and all of that. It comes full circle. So, wow, fantastic coming. We work in software, we work in text tools who work in all these different things. And I know I, I’m sure Kelly does to knowing the two of us in the way we work with tech, we can get down into those weeds really easily and just get totally consumed with like the new checkbox tool in, in a, in a chat bots and you know, figuring out where to use that and how to use it and not come up for air and go, this is not my client’s pain is not where my clients are having issues. This is a fun, cool thing for me to play with, but it’s not directly related to what my client needs right now. So being able to balance those two things is what I hear you saying.

42:48 – Yeah. In chatbots are an interesting topic. I haven’t done a lot of research in here, but from my angle it can obviously make your customer service line or whatever it is. You’re doing much more efficient. For me, when I’m talking to a chat Bot, like most of the time I just want to talk to a real person, which can be frustrating. So if I can make my chat Bot answer any questions as frictionless as possible, that would be my goal. You have to go like, all right, if they’re coming to me for x, Y, Z reason, they’re probably pissed off and want to talk to a real person, or if they’re coming to me for these, I can send them down a path that’s going to keep our customer service team free to answer the people that are actually a neat. I think there’s a big valuable point there. If it’s responsive and like got bots have to be immediately responsive. Right? Right. Like there’s those fake ones that you see on agency sites. Like, Hey, I’m alive. I’m like, it’s 3:00 in the morning.

43:42 – You’re not live. Let’s not try and fool people. Yeah.

43:50 – As bad as like going onto a website and getting a full page takeover. Like sign up for my book and you go, no, I don’t want someone to say you don’t want to learn more about marketing. Yeah. No know is this really your angle right now? I don’t want to learn more. That’s why I don’t want your ego.

44:04 – Yeah, right. Negative. No negative doesn’t always work. Wow. All right. Jacob, you know this time it’s totally flown by. I thank you so much for sharing.

44:14 – Gotta say Jacob Lives in my neck of the woods, northern California. So we’re going to have to definitely meet for coffee sometime soon since we’re not very far from each other. As soon as the snow melts and you can come on down the hill, we’ve got about an inch and a half last night, so it’s really not that bad. Good.

44:32 – Tell you what my front yard looks like. It’s about 20 inches at the moment. I know I saw a video of you or you didn’t show the video you had just said that I made it up my driveway with no issues. That was like, wow, that’s amazing to me. About the snowshoes. Yeah, right. Yeah. That was in the car so she couldn’t put snowshoes on the car.

44:56 – So thank you so much. I appreciate it. We’ll have all the contact information where our audience can get in touch with you, but I really appreciate you sharing your value with us. And really bringing us back to, you know, personalized care, empathy, all the things that really get lost in this robotic future that loons before us. So thank you so much. Thank you so much, meredith. It was great to meet you, Kelly. How power the show. Thanks. Jacob will talk to you later.